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  • Descriptions.

    In my opinion the likeliest to have seen the ripper are Elizabeth Long, Joseph Lawende (with Levy and Harris), Isreal Schwartz and George Hutchinson.

    Elizabeth Long - “…brown deer-stalker hat, and she thought he had on a dark coat, but was not quite certain of that. She could not say what the age of the man was, but he looked to be over 40, and appeared to be a little taller than deceased. He appeared to be a foreigner, and had a 'shabby genteel' appearance.

    Joseph Lawende - “… age 30, height 5 ft. 7 or 8 in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.”

    Israel Schwartz - “…age about 30, height 5 ft. 5 in., complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak.”

    George Hutchinson - “…about 34 or 35. height 5ft6 complexion pale, dark eyes and eye lashes [“dark” – deleted] slight moustache, curled up each end, and hair dark, very surley looking dress long dark coat, collar and cuffs trimmed astracan. and a dark jacket under. light waistcoat dark trousers dark felt hat turned down in the middle. button boots and gaiters with white buttons. wore a very thick gold chain white linen collar. black tie with horse shoe pin. respectable appearance walked very sharp. Jewish appearance.”


    Age - 30 to 40

    Height - 5’5” to 5’8”

    Complexion- Fair to pale in the three descriptions where it’s mentioned.


    Ok so far


    Moustache - (mentioned in three only) fair(L) or small brown(S) or slight and curled(H)


    At a push (making an allowance for observation although Hutch’s ‘curled’ raises an eyebrow imo)


    Build - (mentioned in three) medium, broad shouldered.


    Unless Schwartz’ man had shoulders like Sonny Liston they maybe this isn’t as big a difference as we might assume?


    Hat - brown deerstalker(Lo) grey cloth with peak(La) black cap with peak(S) dark felt, turned down in the middle(H)


    Hutchinson’s is clearly a different kind of hat. Brown deerstalker and grey cloth might be mistaken in a certain light and at distance. A black cap brings doubts though.


    Clothes - possible dark coat, shabby genteel(Lo) loose pepper and salt jacket(La) long astrakhan, dark jacket, light waistcoat, dark trousers(H) dark jacket and trousers(S)


    Long and Hutch and Schwartz/Lawende were on different days of course but we still have a problem with Lawende’s ‘pepper and salt’ against Schwartz dark jacket.


    The rest of Hutchinson’s description gives us a very ‘stand out’ looking man. But we can add a little at him giving Kelly a red handkerchief while Lawende has his man wearing a reddish neckerchief.


    Given how unreliable witnesses can be I don’t think that we can conclude anything particularly useful from the descriptions.
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

  • #2
    I rule out Elizabeth Long because the day before she went to the mortuary she stated she would not recognize the couple again. Also because I think Lawende is more likely to have heard the killer than Long was to have seen him, and Lawende had heard what he did well before Long passed through the street. Hutchinson is not reliable.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • #3
      What I found interesting about Long and Hutchinson is that they could be talking about the same man. Especially if the man was of some means as shabby genteel might indicate. Did that mean that this man may have taken advantage of the East End Rag Trade to get his look? Possibly as the term " cabbaging" was used to describe knock offs of higher end fashion. The Rag traders were dealing in remnants. It's just a theory but it's also possible. The Astrakan was shipped in to the East End Docks so a black market was not unlikely. Was the East End version of better fashion just shabby genteel?

      The other thing that struck me when I first looked at these descriptions long ago was how ordinary they were. In other words there was nothing to distinguish this killer from every other East Ender. They all looked alike, hats, mustaches, coats.
      Like finding a needle in the haystack.

      Im not sure how popular deerstalker hats were but they were the only distinctive item of dress other than the apparel Hutchinson described. That seemed over the top unless Possibly his purpose was to get Kelly indoors. Dress to impress? Wasn't the deerstalker a hunters hat?

      Long was on the sidewalk right next to the man and woman she saw and the sidewalk was not that wide. While she was passing she sounds like she caught a glimpse of Chapman and enough of a look at the man to say he dressed Shabby Genteel, was dark, and slightly taller than the woman. Does not sound like she stopped and kept walking as to mind her own business. A woman walking alone in Whitechapel after 2 recent murders is likely driven by necessity and survival. She may have had the best view.

      It's hard to tell with the dress. The upper Classes would slum but then escape would be riskier. But whoever it was they were smart enough and had some means to evidently change their look.

      My 2 cents. Cheers.

      Comment


      • #4
        Suspect

        He was a short, stout man, with a pale face, and small black moustache.
        He was about 40.

        His hat was a high round felt hat.
        He had a brownish overcoat, with a black short coat underneath.
        His trousers were a dark pepper-and-salt.


        A man fitting the above description was alleged to have accosted two women in Bethnal-Green Road, on Wed. Nov. 7th.
        He tried to coerce one of the two to join him down a dark alley.

        The following night, Thursday 8th Nov. a man of similar description was seen to accost three females in Brushfield Street, reported by one of the witnesses named Sarah Ronay, aged 20.


        ​On Friday morning, 9th Nov. the same man was seen outside the Britannia Public house about 3:00 am, alleged to have been talking with Mary Kelly, less than one hour before the time of her murder.





        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
          I rule out Elizabeth Long because the day before she went to the mortuary she stated she would not recognize the couple again. Also because I think Lawende is more likely to have heard the killer than Long was to have seen him, and Lawende had heard what he did well before Long passed through the street. Hutchinson is not reliable.

          Yours truly,

          Tom Wescott
          On these points I entirely agree.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
            Suspect

            He was a short, stout man, with a pale face, and small black moustache.
            He was about 40.

            His hat was a high round felt hat.
            He had a brownish overcoat, with a black short coat underneath.
            His trousers were a dark pepper-and-salt.


            A man fitting the above description was alleged to have accosted two women in Bethnal-Green Road, on Wed. Nov. 7th.
            He tried to coerce one of the two to join him down a dark alley.

            The following night, Thursday 8th Nov. a man of similar description was seen to accost three females in Brushfield Street, reported by one of the witnesses named Sarah Ronay, aged 20.


            ​On Friday morning, 9th Nov. the same man was seen outside the Britannia Public house about 3:00 am, alleged to have been talking with Mary Kelly, less than one hour before the time of her murder.





            I have to agree with Jon's assessment, throwing an "usual gait".

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
              I rule out Elizabeth Long because the day before she went to the mortuary she stated she would not recognize the couple again. Also because I think Lawende is more likely to have heard the killer than Long was to have seen him, and Lawende had heard what he did well before Long passed through the street. Hutchinson is not reliable.

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott
              I wasn’t aware of that Tom (or I’ve just forgotten it) Long saw Chapman at the mortuary and identified her as the woman that she had seen but she couldn’t identify the man because he was facing away from her.
              Regards

              Sir Herlock Sholmes.

              “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                I rule out Elizabeth Long because the day before she went to the mortuary she stated she would not recognize the couple again. Also because I think Lawende is more likely to have heard the killer than Long was to have seen him, and Lawende had heard what he did well before Long passed through the street. Hutchinson is not reliable.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott
                Hi Tom,

                Where you said "Lawende" here, did you mean to say "Cadosch"?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                  I have to agree with Jon's assessment, throwing an "usual gait".
                  Oops, this should have read "I have to agree with Jon's assessment, throwing in an "unusual gait".". Wentworth BellSmith comes to mind.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                    Oops, this should have read "I have to agree with Jon's assessment, throwing in an "unusual gait".". Wentworth BellSmith comes to mind.
                    Not many people's favoured suspect but to my mind an interesting individual and a long shot for being the Ripper.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                      Oops, this should have read "I have to agree with Jon's assessment, throwing in an "unusual gait".". Wentworth BellSmith comes to mind.
                      Hi George.

                      I agree with you regarding Bellsmith, however, I am heavily leaning toward Charles Ludwig/Wetzel being the Bethnal Green Botherer. He fits the description near to a "T", was in the area bothering/threatening to stab other individuals with a knife on a few occasions. He was stated to walk with an unusual gait/ stiff leg. I suspect he may have carried a black bag as he was a barber by trade. He had surgical training.
                      Last edited by jerryd; Yesterday, 02:22 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

                        Hi Tom,

                        Where you said "Lawende" here, did you mean to say "Cadosch"?
                        Egads, yes. I meant Cadosch.

                        Yours truly,

                        Tom Wescott

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          I wasn’t aware of that Tom (or I’ve just forgotten it) Long saw Chapman at the mortuary and identified her as the woman that she had seen but she couldn’t identify the man because he was facing away from her.
                          Long didn't go to the police until three days after the murder. According to the Daily News of Sept. 12th, she said she 'does not think she could identify the couple.' Then on the fourth day she's taken to the mortuary to identify the corpse of a woman she glanced at for a few seconds four days earlier. I think she did see a couple but as she stated at the inquest, she 'didn't take much notice of them' and the information she gave police was guesswork to be helpful. It's also worth mentioning that she did not see the couple standing in front of 29 Hanbury Street as many books insist, but a few doors along.

                          Mind you, I don't KNOW she didn't see Chapman and her killer, but since this is an opinion thread I thought I'd offer mine. When I look at the different witnesses I just can't rate Long high on the scale. I'm uncomfortable having to move her timing around more than 15 minutes to fit her in with Cadosch and her statement a day before going to the mortuary that she wouldn't recognize the couple (not just the man) gives me real pause.

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott​

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                            Hi George.

                            I agree with you regarding Bellsmith, however, I am heavily leaning toward Charles Ludwig/Wetzel being the Bethnal Green Botherer. He fits the description near to a "T", was in the area bothering/threatening to stab other individuals with a knife on a few occasions. He was stated to walk with an unusual gait/ stiff leg. I suspect he may have carried a black bag as he was a barber by trade. He had surgical training.
                            Hi Jerry,

                            I agree that Ludwig's actions in mid September and mid October were very reminiscent of the Bethnal Green Botherer, but on 30 September he was incarcerated and could not have been involved in the double event. Abberline reported on Oct 22 that it had been clearly proved that he was in no way concerned in the recent murders.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post

                              Long didn't go to the police until three days after the murder. According to the Daily News of Sept. 12th, she said she 'does not think she could identify the couple.' Then on the fourth day she's taken to the mortuary to identify the corpse of a woman she glanced at for a few seconds four days earlier. I think she did see a couple but as she stated at the inquest, she 'didn't take much notice of them' and the information she gave police was guesswork to be helpful. It's also worth mentioning that she did not see the couple standing in front of 29 Hanbury Street as many books insist, but a few doors along.

                              Mind you, I don't KNOW she didn't see Chapman and her killer, but since this is an opinion thread I thought I'd offer mine. When I look at the different witnesses I just can't rate Long high on the scale. I'm uncomfortable having to move her timing around more than 15 minutes to fit her in with Cadosch and her statement a day before going to the mortuary that she wouldn't recognize the couple (not just the man) gives me real pause.

                              Yours truly,

                              Tom Wescott​
                              I am of the same opinion Tom.

                              Comment

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