An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have always regarded the quote "she screamed three times, but not very loudly", as a problematic translation into English by someone whose range of English vocabulary is rather limited. Quite simply, a scream is loud, and you cannot scream even relatively quietly. I am therefore of the opinion that in Schwartz' native tongue he said that Stride made some sort of irritated squeal at being pushed around, and the translator simply didn't have the right words to describe exactly what was said by Schwartz, and so added "not very loudly" to illustrate that it wasn't really a scream at all.

An irritated squeal would consist of words, expressed louder and with a higher tone than normal speech. Had Stride squealed 3 words, Schwartz would have said something to that effect; to indicate she had raised her voice in protest. I don't think we have a translation issue, because Abberline could have asked for clarification had he felt it necessary. Even without the right words, Schwartz could have acted it. How would you act irritated squeals that are not words but just noises?

[GBinOz]

You're way, way behind in the discussion of Mortimer's couple.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

WADR, I do not have the slightest concern about being "way behind in the discussion of Mortimer's couple". Discuss as you may, Mortimer's comments are recorded by the press as one who was there at the time. Speculation and conjecture can be applied as to what may have really been meant, but the evidence still stands in the face of post mortem "discussions".

Regards, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Exactly Doc. And yet a mystery is created from this. It came from a non-English speaker via a interpreter for whom English probably wasn’t his first language.

Unlike yourself, I accept the police evidence as is. Am I trying to create a mystery, or are you trying to hide one?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Unlike yourself, I accept the police evidence as is. Am I trying to create a mystery, or are you trying to hide one?

Why aren’t you seeing this Andrew? The evidence is that Schwartz said that her cries weren’t very loud. That’s what the witness said. “Not very loudly.” It couldn’t be clearer but you are the one implying that “not very loudly” must have meant “loudly” hence your belief that someone should have heard it. It’s you that is trying to alter the evidence. Not me.

[Doctored Whatsit]

An irritated squeal would consist of words, expressed louder and with a higher tone than normal speech. Had Stride squealed 3 words, Schwartz would have said something to that effect; to indicate she had raised her voice in protest. I don't think we have a translation issue, because Abberline could have asked for clarification had he felt it necessary. Even without the right words, Schwartz could have acted it. How would you act irritated squeals that are not words but just noises?

Sorry, but to scream "not very loudly" is not to scream at all, but to make some sort of noise similar to a scream but significantly quieter. A squeal need not consist of actual words, as you suggest, but even if it did, Schwartz wouldn't have understood them. Abberline has just accepted the translation, and not put it into his own words. We understand what Schwartz was trying to say.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why aren’t you seeing this Andrew? The evidence is that Schwartz said that her cries weren’t very loud. That’s what the witness said. “Not very loudly.” It couldn’t be clearer but you are the one implying that “not very loudly” must have meant “loudly” hence your belief that someone should have heard it. It’s you that is trying to alter the evidence. Not me.

Not very loud screams could still be quite loud. Assuming the truth of the claim, would these screams have been heard by at least one person? Probably, but we can never know for sure.

[Wickerman]

. . . I feel certain that Brown was a credible witness and that Overcoat Man actually existed. I'm not as certain about Schwartz. I accept his evidence because I cannot discount his evidence. It's as simple as that.

I don't doubt Brown was a credible witness, but he didn't notice the flower that every other witness noticed, so there must be some reasonable doubt that Brown saw Stride.
I might add, you can only arrive at the conclusion you have if you dismiss the more certain witness who did notice the flower - Packer.
He saw who she arrived with, from which direction she came, and who she remained with after he spoke to them.
PC Smith confirmed Packer by describing Stride was with a man carrying a parcel, at the same place, at the same time as Packer described.
Your somewhat 'engineered' rejection of Packer entirely, has led you down the wrong path.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not very loud screams could still be quite loud. Assuming the truth of the claim, would these screams have been heard by at least one person? Probably, but we can never know for sure.

But we do know. They were heard by Schwartz but no one else. Or they sounded like background talk. Someone inside the club might have heard a distant sounding voice but assumed that it came from the members in another room.

[Wickerman]

Rather than Spooner and his GF being the young couple, is there any chance it may have been Eagle and his GF?

Neither, Chris.
Eagle was back at the club around 12:40, besides, the press knew of both Eagle & Spooner, yet the girl that was interviewed makes no mention of being with either one, from the London Evening News:

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

Which also emphasizes the female was not Stride either.

[c.d.]

Or they sounded like background talk. Someone inside the club might have heard a distant sounding voice but assumed that it came from the members in another room.

A very good point, Herlock. If somebody says I didn't hear anything are they literally saying they heard no sound at all or are they essentially saying I didn't hear anything of which I took notice and felt I needed to respond to?

c.d.

[New Waterloo]

I am not sure if Spooner ever speaks with the press and is quoted by them. I can see his inquest testimony reported but not any press interview. I am probably wrong (help anyone)
It is feasible that the girl who says she was in a 'bisecting thoroughfare' with her sweetheart was Spooner's girlfriend and indeed was with Spooner.

I am trying to get across the fact that Spooner and his girlfriend made their way from the pub on Commercial Road and for a period stood by the Beehive. But they are in the area for more than an hour before Spooner goes to the yard.

If she was Spooner's girlfriend she probably thought the time was as Spooner suggests a lot earlier. So if on their travels they stopped in a passageway looking out onto Berners Street she would say that she heard nothing unusual for the twenty minutes she was there.

She may have been on her own when speaking to the press. I see this as quite feasible.

I don't suppose the press had Spooner's name until he gave evidence at the inquest so wouldn't link the two. So she ends up an anonymous witness.

An idea

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Or they sounded like background talk. Someone inside the club might have heard a distant sounding voice but assumed that it came from the members in another room.

A very good point, Herlock. If somebody says I didn't hear anything are they literally saying they heard no sound at all or are they essentially saying I didn't hear anything of which I took notice and felt I needed to respond to?

c.d.

It reminds me of another point c.d. We all say things like “Eagle didn’t see anyone in Berner Street,” but what he actually said when asked the question was: “I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.” It’s a potentially significant difference.

And Lave, whose time outdoors is impossible to judge due to the differing versions of what his did said: “I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual.”

Obviously I’m not talking about the Schwartz incident or a lone woman standing anywhere near the club or indeed a couple but there could have been someone in the street that they didn’t pay attention to. So maybe one of them might have seen Goldstein for example. Maybe Mortimer saw Brown but because he wasn’t anywhere near the club she just didn’t bother mentioning him?

[Abby Normal]

Unlike yourself, I accept the police evidence as is. Am I trying to create a mystery, or are you trying to hide one?

There is no mystery and the eye witness evidence was ... she screamed but not very loudly. kind of like..

He ran, but not very fast.
She slept, but not very soundly.
He jumped, but not very high.
They whispered, but not very soft.
He listened, but not very well.
etc.

no mystery.