An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Trevor Marriott]

At the time would the presence, or otherwise, of Spooner's female companion be considered relevant?

I'm not sure that I have sufficient suspicion as to constitute the creation of evil plots. I am really just noticing curiosities and anomalies in time lines and testimony for possible comment.

There is a simpler explanation: if Stride was prostituting herself outside the club, she would have probably propositioned almost every man who passed by, who's to say one of those men pushed her aside and she fell to the ground

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Schwartz steps off the SE intersection curb, and sees Pipeman advance towards him from the direction of the Nelson, and proceeds to run in the direction of his new home (south along Berner) then Pipeman is now behind him, and Schwartz assumes the advance is continuing. When I used to watch movies with my father and the hero was attempting to escape from heavily armed villains he used to say to the onscreen hero "if you're running away, don't look back, run away".

If Schwartz ran to a railway arch, he goes a lot further than he needs to, to get home. If Pipeman only walks, regardless of how many steps you suppose he took, Schwartz would easily outpace him, allowing him to quickly run home and go inside. Why then, the extra journey? Presumably Schwartz confirmed with Abberline that he was visibly aware of Pipeman running in his direction, who eventually seems to give up the chase or feel he is at a safe distance. I also presume Schwartz would not double-back from the rail arch, to get home, but rather take the long way home.

But not considered worthy of comment at an inquest? It may well be that literature was left and picked up as a matter of daily routine.

So, the parcel either contained grapes or literature. The lack of comment at the inquest (except by Smith) suggests it wasn't left in the editor's office.

Is that also presuming that beside each name and address (which Spooner could have given to Lamb) there is a tick able box labelled "Searched" and another space for Phillip's signature indicating "Examined"? Or was there a presumption that if they were let leave these tasks had been performed?

I think each name and address would have been taken down as each person was searched and examined. Spooner was surely on Reid's list, implying he was still there when Phillips arrived, or that he had special permission to leave early, and his name and address were prepended to the list. What else could be the source of that special permission, if not his association with the WVC? So curious that Spooner mentions Mr Harris hearing the early whistle, which could only have been due to a WVC patrolman equipped with a police whistle.

At the time would the presence, or otherwise, of Spooner's female companion be considered relevant?

Yes, if the police wanted to know what became of her on the street, as we do.

What do you find of most importance, Spooner's lady friend or Goldstein's visit to the cafe?

I'm not sure that I have sufficient suspicion as to constitute the creation of evil plots. I am really just noticing curiosities and anomalies in time lines and testimony for possible comment.

Understood. So, one more question. In your scenario, why doesn't Eagle tell the truth? He risks being identified by Schwartz, doesn't he?

[GBinOz]

So curious that Spooner mentions Mr Harris hearing the early whistle, which could only have been due to a WVC patrolman equipped with a police whistle.
IMO the whistling came from the yard - there was an Isaacs and a Jacobs listed as WVC committee members.

Yes, if the police wanted to know what became of her on the street, as we do.
What do you find of most importance, Spooner's lady friend or Goldstein's visit to the cafe?
Goldstein.

So, one more question. In your scenario, why doesn't Eagle tell the truth? He risks being identified by Schwartz, doesn't he?

That is a very good point. Both Eagle and Spooner (and Lave as Pipeman), if involved, would have risked being identified by Schwartz had Schwartz been asked to make identifications.

[Tom_Wescott]

Being locked in the yard doesn't preclude anyone being interviewed by the press during the day. Diemschitz, Kozebrodski and Eagle were all locked in the yard, and each of them spoke to the press, so I don't see why people like Mortimer and Harris couldn't have managed the same feat.

Why would Mr Harris run around to the yard but not go in? Not saying he definitely did, but it's quite possible.

Please quote your sources regarding Mr. Harris doing anything more than coming out his door and seeing what's the matter. And your sources for Mortimer lamenting her loss of liberty, as she certainly would have done if she'd been locked in someone else's yard for hours.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That is a very good point. Both Eagle and Spooner (and Lave as Pipeman), if involved, would have risked being identified by Schwartz had Schwartz been asked to make identifications.

It gets interesting here as we both accept the Echo report (#462) as reflecting reality. Therefore, we have information transmission from Schwartz to Wess (not necessarily directly). Possibly relevant, we also have Wess dragging Goldstein to the police to make a statement, late Tuesday night.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Please quote your sources regarding Mr. Harris doing anything more than coming out his door and seeing what's the matter. And your sources for Mortimer lamenting her loss of liberty, as she certainly would have done if she'd been locked in someone else's yard for hours.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I'm curious as to who was on Reid's list of 28. The definite, probable, and possibles names. Maybe a subject worthy of its own thread. Here's an interesting one.

Arbeter Fraint: There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor's office.

Krantz didn't mention this Yaffa character at the inquest. Was he/she one of the 28?

Regarding Harris, Spooner said: I did not meet anyone as I was hastening to Berner-street, except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay when he heard the policeman's whistle. He came running after me.

Did Harris run after Spooner while explaining why he had come out of his house, or did a conversation ensue after both reached the yard? If the later, how long did Mr Harris stay?

Mortimer: It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found.

Where and when did Fanny learn this? It might depend on what access she had to Mrs Diemschitz, during the day. From the Irish Times:

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

I don't think it was in that context that she learnt of the steward's wife whereabouts at the time of the murder, so presumably the women spoke together in the yard. However, which non-club people were still in the yard when the gates were closed, is mostly unknowable.

[Tom_Wescott]

I assume you've read the issue of Arbeter Fraint that came out following the murder? I have, but it's been some time. Interesting name variations. Your mention of the printing office made me think of it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Arbeter Fraint: There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor's office.

As a matter of interest, re Krantz, and following post.

[The Rookie Detective]

As a matter of interest, re Krantz, and following post.

The name "Yaffa" in Hebrew means "Beautiful"

As a surname; it's of Hebrew and African origin.

As a forename, it is a feminine name given to a girl.

The term "Comrade" can be applied to both men and women.

The question is; was "Yaffa" a woman?


It's possible.

[New Waterloo]

May not be of any importance but interesting none the less that the couple seen by Brown are standing very close (opposite side of road) to where Spooner lived. That being 26 Fairclough Street. Cant be certain as my map doesn't have house numbers on. Not sure if its significant. Could anybody have a look please and indicate where his house was in relation to the Board school.
Thank you It would be appreciated.
NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Error

[Herlock Sholmes]

May not be of any importance but interesting none the less that the couple seen by Brown are standing very close (opposite side of road) to where Spooner lived. That being 26 Fairclough Street. Cant be certain as my map doesn't have house numbers on. Not sure if its significant. Could anybody have a look please and indicate where his house was in relation to the Board school.
Thank you It would be appreciated.
NW

Hi NW,

I have the ideal map that you need but I can’t upload it. No doubt someone will be able to upload a copy of the map with the street numbers and coloured dots noting significant spots for you.

Location of Spooner’s house.

Ok, you are in Fairclough Street leaning against the Board School wall with your left shoulder and facing east. You walk east on Fairclough and cross over Batty Street on your left. Then past the next block of buildings (with Brown’s house in the middle of that block) then past The Beehive on the corner and across Christian Street to the next block which starts with number 37 on the corner. Cross over Fairclough Street when you get to 37 and you’re at another small block of buildings. Spooner’s number 26 is half way along that block. You would have been able to see The Beehive easily from Spooner’s front door. He would also have been able to see Brown’s front door.

[New Waterloo]

Thanks Herlock. Very useful. Not at all where I thought but I guess if he was at the Beehive fairly close to where he lived. This takes me back to an earlier thought. At some point (and it is getting late) he presumably has to take his girlfriend home? I think where she was living is important. Especially if she went home before the searchers arrived and he took her. What would be his route?
NE

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Schwartz had reached the gateway when he stopped to watch the man who was ill-using the woman. Presumably he watched from some distance, and not while at the gateway himself. This suggests he watched from across the street. Crossing the street from that point would have him angling toward home on Ellen St, but it could take him closer to the gateway if he had wanted to intervene in the situation. That would make him an intruder, from the man's point of view. Does that ring a bell?

An observer to this situation might become confused as to who the perpetrator was, especially if a man is then seen being pursued from the scene. That observer might be hypothetical, but the following report from the Echo suggests otherwise.

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made about the difficulty there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be called from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally this fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.

There is disagreement as to whether the Echo report in reality is about the murder, or about a misconstrual of the police search. The following snippet from Der Arbeter Fraint would seem to be enlightening.

Early Sunday morning all of Berner Street was already besieged, and every one looked at number 40 with the greatest curiosity. The club door did not close the whole day. Police and newspaper reporters ran around like poisoned mice.
Seeing that it was impossible to have any amusement that evening and therefore the club would lose money, the members decided to charge the reporters an admission fee if they wanted explanations [descriptions?] of the murder. This is what happened and the reporters willingly paid the donation to Socialist propaganda.

Some people at the club seem to have known something about what happened, and when it happened ...

The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks Herlock. Very useful. Not at all where I thought but I guess if he was at the Beehive fairly close to where he lived. This takes me back to an earlier thought. At some point (and it is getting late) he presumably has to take his girlfriend home? I think where she was living is important. Especially if she went home before the searchers arrived and he took her. What would be his route?
NE

NW, you might like this old (but still active) thread at JtRF. Link goes to post #51 for its relevance to current discussions.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-victims/elizabeth-stride/1428-elizabeth-stride?p=49313#post49313