An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

There can be only one (couple).

Can you explain that please? How could the couple that Fanny allegedly spoke to have been the couple that Brown saw?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't believe the standard model of the incident can account for Pipeman running.


.

Probably because there is no suggestion of Pipeman running.

“The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road ‘Lipski’ & then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran as far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far.”

Schwartz walked away with Pieman walking behind him. When Schwartz looked around and saw Pipeman walking in the same direction he (Schwartz) began to run.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Schwartz said he was chased through the streets. Still confused, George.

Where does Schwartz say this? I can’t find it.

[GBinOz]

Interesting possibilities. Here's some thoughts.

Given the shouting, would JtR have seen this as an opportunity? Unlikely.
An opportunity where someone else was seen "ill-using" the victim and would be blamed for the murder.

If the man standing over the woman is still ill-using her, then he is obviously the culprit.
I don't think he was ill-using her to start with, but at this stage he is only seeing a woman on the ground with a man standing over her.
If he is not touching her, but is shouting at a man across the street, then he shouted more than just 'Lipski'. We don't have any evidence for that, so it will have to be supposed that this detail was not included in Swanson's report. However, would he be so offended by this incident that he would postpone enjoying his pipe, for the purpose of chasing a man who did something to a woman that he didn't even witness?
I think that his initial impulse may have been towards Schwartz, but followed by a thought that he would be better to sort out what actually happened. By this time Schwartz had scarpered, not looking back to see if someone was following.
On the other hand, if it makes little sense for Pipeman to suppose Schwartz is the culprit, the problem we are now left with is, what caused Pipeman to run? Can we really suppose that two men ran off in fear, while the woman being assaulted was not even scared enough to raise her voice?
How could Pipeman know who was the culprit? I don't think Pipeman did "run".

If he has gone into the club, why not take her with him? Women were allowed into the club. Philip Krantz did not report anyone coming into the Arbeter Fraint offices until he was alerted to the murder.
He intended to be away only briefly, so didn't prevail on Stride to accompany him, particularly if he was headed towards the Loo.

Schwartz said he was chased through the streets. Still confused, George.

Schwartz presumed that he may have been pursued. He didn't look back so he was unsure. I look toward the report by Wess.

This thread is supposed to be addressing the black bag man, but continues to be yet another interminable Schwartz analysis.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The problem is that there is nothing to talk about with black bag man. We know his name, where he’d been and where he was going. He was absolutely uninvolved in these events. Of all of the names mentioned in connection to Berner Street Goldstein is the least significant.

[New Waterloo]

I too believed that Brown saw his couple on the way back from the chandler's shop.
i believe Brown is a good witness and Herlock is right when he states that he does not see any other couple on his way out and his way home. Only the one couple.
The very important thing about Brown is that he lives next door to the Beehive Pub which means its safe to say there was only one couple on that stretch of Fairclough on his walk.
Spooner states he and his girlfriend were by the Beehive so could have been just around into Christian Street out of Browns sight.

One Press report has Spooner saying that they went to a pub on the corner of Commercial Road and Settle street. I think it may have been called the Gloster Arms. (Spelled that way)
not far from where Stride may have been in the Bricklayers just up the road.

I think if we add in a couple for Mortimer it is stretching things too far.

i dont believe there were 3 couples between Berner street junction and the Beehive.

Browns man is wearing a long coat. Other witnesses including Marshall describe a short coat (cutaway/frock/morning)

if Brown is correct about Stride. Then we have another man to fit in to the mix. Unless the man he sees with Stride is BSM.

NW

[Tom_Wescott]

I too believed that Brown saw his couple on the way back from the chandler's shop.
i believe Brown is a good witness and Herlock is right when he states that he does not see any other couple on his way out and his way home. Only the one couple.
The very important thing about Brown is that he lives next door to the Beehive Pub which means its safe to say there was only one couple on that stretch of Fairclough on his walk.
Spooner states he and his girlfriend were by the Beehive so could have been just around into Christian Street out of Browns sight.

One Press report has Spooner saying that they went to a pub on the corner of Commercial Road and Settle street. I think it may have been called the Gloster Arms. (Spelled that way)
not far from where Stride may have been in the Bricklayers just up the road.

I think if we add in a couple for Mortimer it is stretching things too far.

i dont believe there were 3 couples between Berner street junction and the Beehive.

Browns man is wearing a long coat. Other witnesses including Marshall describe a short coat (cutaway/frock/morning)

if Brown is correct about Stride. Then we have another man to fit in to the mix. Unless the man he sees with Stride is BSM.

NW

Good post, NW. But I'm not sure we can put a long overcoat on BSM, can we? As I demonstrated in Ripper Confidential, Fanny Mortimer did not see a young couple. She (and some reporters) spoke to a young woman outside the Dutfield Yard gates following discovery of the murder. The young woman told Mortimer she and her beau had been standing out on the corner around the time the murder was committed which, for some reason, they assumed was around midnight. The young woman told a reporter (who had also spoken to Mortimer) that she and her young man were standing at the opposite end of Berner Street (not the Fairclough corner) around midnight but had split up and gone home long before 12:45.

As for Brown, accepting that he said he saw his couple several minutes after 12:45 is not a question of faith, it's just what he said. It's not a contentious issue.

Regarding Spooner, Brown was looking out his window when the clubmen approached Spooner yelling 'Murder!' and 'Police!' Brown watched as Spooner accompanied the men back to the yard. Brown mistook Spooner, who he probably only saw in shadow, for a constable.

It's worth noting the difficulty men had in finding a constable following both the Hanbury Street and Berner Street murders. If men screaming 'Murder!' have trouble catching anyone's attention, then a fleeing murderer would have had no problem.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[New Waterloo]

Thank you Tom,

It doesn't look like we can put a long coat on BSM but I suppose I was thinking that he is an extra person to account for I suppose. We have a man wearing a shorter style coat (cutaway/morning/frock which I am guessing is a bit more of an expensive coat than most would wear) and the man seen by Brown with Stride with a long coat.

If Schwartz is to be believed (which I do but think he may have misinterpreted something) then we have Parcelman, BSM and Browns long coat man in the area at roughly the same time.

I see him as a separate suspect because of the coat and I thought this is starting to sound silly which is why I thought he could be BSM. I think Herlock suggested that BSM could have made up with Stride after the row/event and chatted on the corner with her. Or he was chatting with her, walked away and then walked back and had the disagreement.

We also have Goldstein walking fast through the middle of all this.

I think Schwartz and Goldstein are different people but some of the 'actors' in all of this are the same people if you see what I mean.

Hang on I am getting myself confused. As always!!