An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Surely, the scarf being pulled tight is the likeliest explanation for screaming but not very loudly ?

Hello Jon.

It was Blackwell that mentioned it:

“The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight.”

But neither he nor Phillips mention it in terms of being connected to her death though. The killer might have held it as he cut her throat though When asked about how she was killed Phillis said:

”I have come to a conclusion as to the position of both the murderer and the victim, and I opine that the latter was seized by the shoulders and placed on the ground, and that the murderer was on her right side when he inflicted the cut. I am of opinion that the cut was made from the left to the right side of the deceased, and taking into account the position of the incision it is unlikely that such a long knife inflicted the wound in the neck.”

If she was being forced to the ground why didn’t she call out? She would have known that this wasn’t a sexual encounter.

[Jon Guy]

Right. But Schwartz wasn't there when she was killed. He is describing what took place prior to that.

c.d.

Yes, he did scarper off when BS Man started swinging her about.

[c.d.]

No, we only know it was pulled tight before she was killed.

Right. But Schwartz wasn't there when she was killed. He is describing what took place prior to that.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

But do we know exactly when the scarf pulling occurred?

c.d.

No, we only know it was pulled tight before she was killed.

[c.d.]

Surely, the scarf being pulled tight is the likeliest explanation for screaming but not very loudly ?

But do we know exactly when the scarf pulling occurred?

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

I think that has to be the likeliest explanation c.d.

It seems unlikely to me than an English speaking person would say ‘screamed but not very loudly.’ You can’t scream anything other than loudly. It’s like saying “he whispered incredibly loudly.”

Surely, the scarf being pulled tight is the likeliest explanation for screaming but not very loudly ?

[c.d.]

Except that "convenient" can be applied to any witness or any fact in the case if one so chooses.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

It's also convenient that Schwartz didn't speak a word of English.
Who would suspect a man who didn't speak English?

I don't think god himself could be as clever as Schwartz. If he actually didn't speak a word of English the convenient aspect is pretty much a moot point.

c.d.

But it adds to the mix.

The sum of all parts.

[c.d.]

I don't immediately jump to a "personal" connection although that can't be ruled out. Her reaction would also be consistent with the belief that someone was simply trying to get her to move without any real intention to harm her.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

He observes the only woman in history who is suddenly attacked but who chooses to not scream or shout her head off for someone to help her, but instead let's out 3 muted screams; presumably in a bid to not raise the alarm and get help.

If Bs Man did in fact assault Stride, then her odd reaction strongly implies that she knew him personally.

A bad translation of "scream" can account for that.

c.d.

I think that has to be the likeliest explanation c.d.

It seems unlikely to me than an English speaking person would say ‘screamed but not very loudly.’ You can’t scream anything other than loudly. It’s like saying “he whispered incredibly loudly.”

[c.d.]

He observes the only woman in history who is suddenly attacked but who chooses to not scream or shout her head off for someone to help her, but instead let's out 3 muted screams; presumably in a bid to not raise the alarm and get help.

If Bs Man did in fact assault Stride, then her odd reaction strongly implies that she knew him personally.

A bad translation of "scream" can account for that.

c.d.

[c.d.]

It's also convenient that Schwartz didn't speak a word of English.
Who would suspect a man who didn't speak English?

I don't think god himself could be as clever as Schwartz. If he actually didn't speak a word of English the convenient aspect is pretty much a moot point.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

It's interesting that Schwartz never appeared at the inquest.

It also interesting that his statement didn't survive.

It's almost as if Swanson invented him, because all we have are 3rd person accounts of what Schwartz was meant to have said.

It's unlikely of course, but imagine for a moment that Swanson and Abberline invented Schwartz, and the man didn't even exist.

Highly unlikely, unless the Ripper was a plain clothed police officer.

Just a random thought.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is a suggested possible timeline that I posted a while ago. I’ve included approximate times.


11.45 - William Marshall sees Stride talking to BSMan. Stride is trying to get rid of BSMan because he’s a nuisance. She says that she’ll see him another time but BSMan doesn’t believe her saying “you’ll say anything but your prayers.” They part company.

12.30 - Charles Letchford passes along Berner Street but he pays no attention to Stride and Parcelman who are standing talking opposite the club.

12.32 - PC. Smith passes on his beat. He sees the couple. As Smith passed the couple move on. Where to? Who knows?

12.33 - Joseph Lave exits the side door of the club and goes into the yard to get some air. He looks out into the street and all appears normal and quiet. He moves around the yard including to the rear (maybe he uses the outside loo?). Fanny Mortimer goes onto her doorstep after hearing Smith pass. The street is empty.

12.41 - Fanny goes back indoors to perform some household task or because her husband has called to her. At around the same time Joseph Lave goes back into the club.

12.42 - Morris Eagle returns from taking his girlfriend home. He knows that the front door of the club is locked at around this time but he tries it as it’s not locked at exactly the same time every night. He finds that it is locked so he uses the side door seeing nothing unusual. James Brown goes to fetch his supper and Edward Spooner and his girlfriend stroll along commercial Road from the pub. They turn into Batty Street then stroll south. They stop at the corner of Batty and Fairclough by the Board School chatting.

12.44 - James Brown returns with his supper and sees the couple. Spooner tries to get her to come home with him but she says:”“No, not to-night, some other night.” The couple then walk up to Christian Street and stand outside The Beehive pub. BSMan enters Berner Street from Commercial Road with Schwartz walking a few yards behind him.

12.45 - Stride returns and begins to walk north on Berner Street. She sees BSMan approaching and ducks into the gateway hoping that she hasn’t been seen. Unfortunately for her BSMan has seen her and he pulls her out into the street and the scene is witness by Schwartz and Pipeman (who had just walked into Berner Street and stopped in the doorway of The Nelson to light his pipe). She doesn’t scream loudly because she wasn’t in fear of her life at the time. Schwartz and Pipeman flee west into Fairclough Street.

12.47 - BSMan loses his temper and cuts Stride’s throat. He exits the yard and leaves the street (direction unknown)

12.48 - Fanny Mortimer comes back onto her doorstep and looks out before bolting her door for the night. She sees Leon Goldstein passing on his way home. As Goldstein passes along Fairclough Street Spooner and his girlfriend are kissing and so they don’t see him pass.

12.50 - Charles Letchford’s sister goes onto her doorstep before locking up for the night. She sees nothing.

12.55 - Fanny goes back indoors.

1.00 - Diemschitz returns and finds Stride’s body.

1.02 - Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky run along Fairclough Street passing Spooner and his girlfriend.

1.03 - Spooner goes to the kerb and when they return he asks Diemschitz what’s happened. Spooner returns with Diemschitz and Kozebrodski. His girlfriend follows on.

1.03 - Lamb heads out to look for a PC and Kozebrodski goes with him.

1.05 - They return with Lamb and Ayliffe.

1.05 - Ayliffe is sent for Blackwell and Eagle is sent to Leman Street.

1.06 - Smith arrives.

1.07 - Fanny talks to Spooner and his girlfriend who said that they had been around from before the murder (around 12.45) until after (when Louis passed) and they’d seen or heard nothing. Not surprising considering their location.

1.10 - Johnson arrives

1.16 - Blackwell arrives.

[The Rookie Detective]

What did Mortimer actually say?

"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half past twelve and one o'clock."

If Mortimer was telling the truth and wasn't mistaken, then her words prove that she stood at her door for nearly the whole time between 12.30am and 1am.

It also proves that Fanny did NOT stand at her door the WHOLE time, meaning that she DID go back inside at some point during that time period.

She didn't see or hear Lave
She didn't see or hear Eagle, who tried the locked club door
She didn't see or hear Schwartz, who walked directly past her door.
She didn't see or hear Bs man who was within yards of her door when spotted by Schwartz
She didn't see Pipeman
She didn't see the assault of Stride being thrown down on the floor.
She didn't hear the shout of "Lipski!"
She didn't see or hear Mr Letchford walk down the street
She doesn't see Miss Letchford standing at her door (number 30 - located in opposite direction to the club)
She didn't see or hear Parcelman
She didn't see or hear Stride
She didn't see PC Smith

So based on all the above...

When exactly COULD Fanny have been standing at her door?

"nearly the whole time"

Really?

Was she lying?

Well, we know that she DID see Goldstein walk very fast down the road and observed him as he looked up at the club and then around the corner.

The sound of Mortimer opening her door and observing Goldstein must have been known by Goldstein himself.

Why would Goldstein go to the police station and say he was the man who walked past the murder site close to the time of the murder?

He must have known that he was seen by Mortimer.

That proves that Mortimer WAS at her door at some point.

But when could Goldstein have been seen by Mortimer?

Well we can be certain that Goldstein passed the murder site when NOBODY else was in the section of Berner Street between Mortimer's door and the club.

But what about those measured footsteps that Mortimer also claimed to have heard pass her door?

Well... Mortimer never actually said she heard a man walk past her door, as the newspaper report was written in the 3RD person and wasn't a direct quote from Mortimer herself; unlike the other report that is written in 1st person context.


This is important because the idea that Mortimer was standing at her door for around 10 minutes, is not factually correct.

Mortimer never said anything about being at her door for 10 minutes.

We also have Charles Letchford who lived at number 30, and who stated that his sister was at the door at 12.50am.
We don't know how long she was standing there, but she didn't observe Goldstein, or more precisely, according to Charles, his sister; "did not see anyone pass by."

That means that Goldstein didn't walk down the street when Miss Letchford was at her door.

Miss Letchford also didn't see Schwartz or Bs Man. Both men, or at least Schwartz, would have walked directly past Miss Letchford as she stood at her door.

We also have Brown whose time of 12.45am is ruled out due to the alleged assault on Stride having taken place at the same time.

Mortimer also mentions in her statement...

"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

Brown also sees a couple at the corner of the street.

So the question is; why did the couple on the corner; who spoke to Mortimer after the murder, not HEAR the assault on Stride that was alleged to have taken place around 12.45am?

It suggests that either the assault didn't happen, or that the couple arrived AFTER Schwartz runs off.

We also have an "open window" or the kitchen, and an "ajar" door to the side of the club house, and at least 1 woman located inside, who heard nothing.

We also have Mortimer again, who clearly states
"There was certainly no noise made and I did not observe ANYONE ENTER the gates."

She also states...
"The deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house."

This is based on the fact that the man who she observed touch Stride's face and said "it was quite warm."

Mortimer also states "If a man had come out of the yard before 1'o'clock, I must have seen him."


So...

What can we take from all this?

Well if we accept what Mortimer actually said, then it supports the idea that Stride was murdered quickly and silently by a man in the yard, very close to 1am.

We have...

Morris Eagle
Joseph Lave
Charles Letchford
Miss Letchford
Fanny Mortimer
James Brown
Pc Smith
Leon Goldstein
The stewards wife in the kitchen
The young man and his sweetheart on the corner.

That's 11 people who were in relatively close proximity to the murder site; and who could all either see or hear clearly, between 12.30am and 1am.

And then we have Schwartz who is the only witness to come forward and state (via a translator) that an assault occurred around 12.45am.

For his account to be true and accurate we have to...

Move Brown's timing
Move Mortimer inside her house
Accept that Eagle, Lave, Pc Smith and Miss Mortimer missed everything.
Accept that the woman sitting by the open window and ajar door had a hearing impediment.
Accept that the couple on the corner didn't notice a man shout "LIPSKI!" or a man running away, or a man with a pipe following him briefly.

When we take the brave step of realising and accepting that everything that Schwartz said, just doesn't fit, the we can look at WHY he came forward to the police in the first place.

The theatrical looking, non- English speaking Jew who saw Stride being assaulted by a man who then turned his attentions elsewhere by shouting an anti-semitic slur...

that nobody heard.

Nobody saw or heard Bs Man
Nobody saw or heard Pipeman
Nobody has been able to find Schwartz

He also ran away as far as the trainline (according to Swanson)

That also doesn't fit geographically

There's also confusion as to what side of the road Pipe man was standing.
Regardless, neither Brown or the couple on the corner saw Pipeman anyway.

And what about the reaction of Stride having been assaulted by Bs man as she was thrown down to the floor?

Well, rather conveniently, Stride chooses to scream 3 times "but not very loudly."

How convenient for Schwartz.

He observes the only woman in history who is suddenly attacked but who chooses to not scream or shout her head off for someone to help her, but instead let's out 3 muted screams; presumably in a bid to not raise the alarm and get help.

If Bs Man did in fact assault Stride, then her odd reaction strongly implies that she knew him personally.

But what really helps Schwartz observing the assault and hearing the shout of "LIPSKI!" Is that it takes the attention away from the possibility of the killer having been Jewish, or the killer having been involved with the club.

Infact, Schwartz presents Bs Man as a random aggressive gentile (non Jew) who assaults Stride yards away from where she was murdered.

The thing is; Schwartz had no idea that there was a woman sitting in the kitchen just yards away or that there was a couple standing at the corner and within earshot.

That either means that Schwartz wasn't even there, or that he was, but was either mistaken or lied.

Or course, Schwartz may indeed be the only witness who told the truth, and the woman in the kitchen, the couple on the corner, and several local residents; including Mortimer, were all wrong or lying about what they stated they DIDN'T see or hear.

If someone lies by saying they heard or saw nothing, then they may be scared to tell the truth and/or don't want to get involved.
But if someone lies by saying they saw and heard everything (Schwartz) then it's because they want attention and/or have a hidden agenda.


It's also convenient that Schwartz didn't speak a word of English.
Who would suspect a man who didn't speak English?

I have an ongoing theory regarding Schwartz, and it's a work in progress at the moment, but it may explain why Schwartz came to the police.

Lots to ponder