An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi George.

For now, I'll ask a similar question as the one above: Why not accept what the police are telling us about Schwartz stopping? What problem are you trying you trying to solve by replacing this with, at most, a momentary pause?

Why not go with Swanson who doesn’t mention stopping?
Why not go with The Star who doesn’t mention stopping?
Why not view the likelihood of him stopping in light of his preceding behaviour - scarpering?

You are, yet again, quite deliberately trying to make this incident last longer than it actually could have (just as Michael used to try and stretch the time between Diemschitz finding the body and him going for a PC) because you have an ongoing agenda to create a mystery (something that you have form for) You are trying to reduce the subject to a spy novel with your approach. We KNOW what happened with Schwartz because he told us.

He walked along Berner Street with BS man an unknown distance in front of him. An incident began and so Schwartz, who naturally wanted to avoid getting close, crossed over the road and continued passing the incident. As he gets to the other side he sees Pipeman (neither he nor us know where he came from though it’s possible that he stopped in the doorway of the beer house to enable him to light his pipe) Schwartz kept looking across, probably in glances (hoping not to antagonise the man) but the man sees him looking and calls out ‘Lipski’. Schwartz leaves the scene. We don’t know what happened in Berner Street next.

No one lied. Errors in witness testimony are always possible.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Andrew,

I tend to agree with cd's later post in that a lot can be lost or mis-interpreted in translation. My interpretation is that when Schwartz turned into Berner St he noticed a man, who was perhaps a little tipsy, walking down the street in front of him. Due to the man's condition he may have gained on him, but I interpret what he said as when the man reached the gateway rather than when he (Schwartz) reached the gateway. A confrontation occurred between the man and a woman standing in the gateway. IMO, Stride was not thrown to the ground, but pulled away from the attempt to pull her into the street, overbalanced and fell. I see the "three screams that were not very loud" as a translation error for some protestation and I do not believe that Stride, at that stage felt herself in danger.

I think that Schwartz was still some yards from the incident and, if he paused at all, it was only momentarily. IMO he then crossed diagonally and proceeded to walk southward on the eastern side of the road. The scale of the situation is deceptive. Having crossed the road diagonally he is only seconds, not minutes from the intersection. He notices Pipeman and a few seconds later, as he is about to step off the kerb in Fairclough St, turns to see the source of a further commotion at the yard. At this stage he and Pipeman are about equidistant from BSMan. There is a conflict here in reports of whether BSMan shouted "Lipski" at one or the other of the men at the intersection, or whether Pipeman shouted a warning to or at BSMan. At that stage Schwartz decided he had had enough of the situation and removed himself in an expeditious manner.

That's how I see it. YMMV.

Cheers, George

Exactly George. And you’ve come to that conclusion by reading the lines and not in between them as Andrew is doing.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Once we read Abberline stating that Schwartz stopped, there is no leeway.

... I am of opinion it [Lipski] was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.

Why hurl an insult after Schwartz crosses the street, going away from the gateway, after Schwartz had been at the gateway watching? It makes little sense. However, if he calls the insult when Schwartz approaches, it makes more sense, as does Abberline's reason for supposing it was called to Schwartz, and not Pipeman.

So BS man calls out an insult to the man (who soon scurried off home) and what is that man’s immediate action according to you? He crosses the road and stands directly in front of the man who has just threatened him to spectate on what’s going on.

You have jumped on one word from Abberline which doesn’t fit with the Swanson version or The Star version. The word ‘stopped’ is a red herring. Schwartz clearly didn’t stop because it would have made no sense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I also find it bizarre that there's a seemingly random reference to Schwartz's evidence being heard at the inquest.
If it was, then he certainly didn't give it in person.

If' that's the case, then he must have seen the murderer and/or the murder, and was shielded by the police from attending the inquest in person.



The more fundamental question is, did Schwartz give evidence at the inquest?

Are you immune to the concept of someone making an error?

[Herlock Sholmes]

What is the exact wording of Schwartz's statement regarding his proximity to the gateway?

c.d.

A very valid point c.d.

Andrew said this:

.
Neither Schwartz's statement nor his inquest testimony survives, as you know. All we have is Swanson's report and later comments from Abberline.

... turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

Schwartz made it very clear, by placing himself level with the gateway, that he knows exactly where the incident occurred. Could Schwartz have observed the fracas from the same footway that Liz was thrown onto, or was he across the street at the time?

Think about this - the man ill-using the woman calls 'Lipski' just after Schwartz is crossing the road and sees the second man. Why bother with the intruding Jew, if he is walking away from the gateway? Is it because our supposedly timid and frightened witness is actually crossing toward the gateway, and thus the first man, and not away from him as has always been supposed?

It is clearly BS man who ‘stopped’ and was ‘level with the gateway.’ Schwartz was behind BS man on the same side of the road but an unknown distance behind him. We have know way of knowing how far behind he was when BS man stopped to talk to the woman - a few feet, 10 yards, 5 yards, but as he saw that this was a confrontation he crossed the road. Again, we don’t know how far behind he was when he crossed to the opposite side of the road but he certainly couldn’t have been level with the gateway because that’s where BS man and the woman were. So he crossed and passed by (no doubt glimpsing across at the incident) Abberline used the word ‘stopped’ but we have no record of Schwartz using this and, in my opinion, it was just an inaccurate figure of speech. Schwartz doesn’t sound like a particularly heroic kind of man. More the ‘scurrying home’ type in my opinion.

But you knew all of the above anyway c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Blood has been removed from the stone.

I realise that the difficulty with this issue is that, for many of us, admitting that Schwartz stopped has the potential to wreak havoc with preferred timelines, and even threaten the viability of Schwartz's story. However, his stopping at the level of the gateway has other implications, unrelated to time. I discuss these in #203. I believe that post answers several questions about the incident. If anyone disagrees with those answers, please explain and perhaps offer alternatives.

You are making this up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I also find it bizarre that there's a seemingly random reference to Schwartz's evidence being heard at the inquest.
If it was, then he certainly didn't give it in person.

If' that's the case, then he must have seen the murderer and/or the murder, and was shielded by the police from attending the inquest in person.



The more fundamental question is, did Schwartz give evidence at the inquest?

Unless they forgot to publish his testimony….no.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If the police stated his evidence was heard at the inquest, but there's no record of him attending, then there is a conflict there that needs explaining.

He either didn't attend; meaning his evidence wasn't heard in 1st person
Or he did attend and gave evidence.

There's no evidence of the latter.

And so if he didn't attend the inquest, but the police stated his evidence was heard there; then we have a puzzle to unravel there.

Either someone else (the police) told the inquest of a man who witnessed an assault but thought it was a domestic, or his evidence wasn't heard at all.

If it wasn't heard, then it doesn't explain why it wasn't considering what Schwartz claimed he saw.

In other words, he should have been the key witness.

So either his evidence amounted to nothing and wasn't considered relevant to the official inquest into her death, or the police needed to shield him from attending in person.

He was either important, or he wasn't.

If he was important then there's no reason why he couldn't attend IF the police were correct in stating that his evidence WAS heard at the inquest.

So either the police were lying about his evidence being heard at the inquest, or they were telling the truth, but needed to keep Schwartz from physically attending in person.

Hope that explains the reasoning to my point.

Why do we need to overcomplicate? The suggestion that Schwartz attended the inquest came from one person. There is no record of him attending the inquest. Answer - the person that mentioned his attendance was mistaken. He made an incorrect assumption.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If not, it was the couple referred to in #174. Take your pick and adjust your timeline accordingly. Brown did not see a man being pursued at 12:45, or a man standing at the door of the Nelson, and Eagle did not see a woman standing in the gateway at 12:40. By the time Brown exits the chandler's shop, the couple are there and claim to have heard no unusual noises.

I'm sure you can make it work.

It only ‘doesn’t’ work if you believe that all times need to be accepted as being synchronised. If you allow some leeway on times, which has to be done if you take a serious approach, then there are no issues. We just have to accept that these times weren’t exact.

If you can prove that Schwartz’s 12.45 was the same as Brown’s then I’ll grant that an issue exists. But you can’t, so there isn’t one.

[The Rookie Detective]

If we look at things from the other way around; at what point did Bs man notice Schwartz?


I would imagine it very unlikely that he was aware of Schwartz BEFORE the assault occurred.


Nowadays, it wouldn't be surprising for a 13 year old boy to randomly stab someone in the street in broad daylight and in front of multiple witnesses.


But in 1888, it would be unlikely for a man to openly assault a woman in front of a man who was walking down the street.


Unless of course, BS man was drunk i.e. he wasn't aware that Schwartz was there at all until after he had thrown Stride to the floor.


If he was drunk, then he wasn't the Ripper.



But if he wasn't drunk, then it would seem unrealistic for him to wait until Schwartz was level with the gateway before choosing to assault Stride.


It is almost certain therefore, that when BS man stopped to talk to Stride, he was unaware of Schwartz's presence, that is despite Schwartz being only yards away as he reached level with the gateway.


That shows that BS man was facing Stride and his attention away from the Jew approaching from the north.


But that doesn't explain why Bs man didn't HEAR Schwartz approaching.


An openly aggressive assault on a woman in the street with a witness no more than 10 yards away, is not indicative of a cold callous killer who then goes on to silently dispatch his victim with one clean deep cut.


So why didn't Bs man hear Schwartz, and why did Bs man choose to assault Stride at the exact time he did?


Based on the above, it may be the case whereby Schwartz is walking on the opposite side of the road, rather than on the same side.

This would seem odd if Schwartz had turned into Berner Street from the west of Commerical Road, but would work if Schwartz had come from the east and then turned left into Berner Street.


But if he was on the same side of the road as Bs man and Stride, then why did Bs man then assault her just as Schwartz reached the gateway?


That makes no sense whatsoever.


But if Schwartz was already on the opposite side of the road, and then as he reaches level with the gateway, he glances over the road to observe Bs man stop and engage with Stride momentarily before BS man launches as assault on her, then that may explain why the assailant didn't hear or notice Schwartz until AFTER he had assaulted Stride.

What's crucial is that Schwartz mentions that he sees the man STOP and talk to her.

He doesn't say he sees a man already talking with her as he reaches level with the gateway.


So from this we can assume that BS man was walking and THEN stopped to engage with Stride.


Based on Schwartz's statement, we can see that he sees Bs man stop first before talking to Stride.

And seeing as Bs man never noticed Schwartz, it's more likely that BS man walking in the same direction as Schwartz i.e. with his back to him the whole time.


But based on Bs man appearing to stop, talk and then assault Stride all in a matter of a few seconds, it begs the question; had Bs man spoken to Stride earlier/before Schwartz turns into the street?

Based on Pipeman's location and the chance that the 2 men could have been companions; it seems possible that BS man had already spoken to Stride but then had walked off angered by her response. He then turns to have a 2nd go at Stride with the intention of assaulting her and teaching her a lesson. But he turns back just as Schwartz turns into the street.

Schwartz only sees Bs man stop and talk to her, but the assailant may have indeed already tried his luck earlier. Something must have made him angry, and there seems no time for Bs amn to have escalated to an assault so quickly; based on Schwartz's account.


Lots to unravel here

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi George.

Hi Andrew,

I tend to agree with cd's later post in that a lot can be lost or mis-interpreted in translation. My interpretation is that when Schwartz turned into Berner St he noticed a man, who was perhaps a little tipsy, walking down the street in front of him. Due to the man's condition he may have gained on him, but I interpret what he said as when the man reached the gateway rather than when he (Schwartz) reached the gateway. A confrontation occurred between the man and a woman standing in the gateway. IMO, Stride was not thrown to the ground, but pulled away from the attempt to pull her into the street, overbalanced and fell. I see the "three screams that were not very loud" as a translation error for some protestation and I do not believe that Stride, at that stage felt herself in danger.

For me to agree or disagree with your interpretations, I'd need to have a better idea as to why you hold some of them. For example, the police summary states the man tried to pull the woman into the street. This implies he failed to do so - our Liz must have been deceptively strong. Only then does he turn her around and throw her down. By replacing this with her falling due to overbalancing when pulled, what problem are you trying to solve?

Regarding the three not very loud screams, well that is an oxymoron to some extent, so in this case it makes sense to suppose that the translation is not quite right. However, we have to accept that as those words appear in Swanson's report, Abberline likely accepted this description. It made sense to him.

I think that Schwartz was still some yards from the incident and, if he paused at all, it was only momentarily. IMO he then crossed diagonally and proceeded to walk southward on the eastern side of the road. The scale of the situation is deceptive. Having crossed the road diagonally he is only seconds, not minutes from the intersection. He notices Pipeman and a few seconds later, as he is about to step off the kerb in Fairclough St, turns to see the source of a further commotion at the yard. At this stage he and Pipeman are about equidistant from BSMan. There is a conflict here in reports of whether BSMan shouted "Lipski" at one or the other of the men at the intersection, or whether Pipeman shouted a warning to or at BSMan. At that stage Schwartz decided he had had enough of the situation and removed himself in an expeditious manner.

That's how I see it. YMMV.

Cheers, George

I think if Schwartz stopped momentarily - barely a pause - it would hardly be worth mentioning by him, let alone in a police memo. We tend to imagine this incident as being very short because the highly condensed police report makes it sound so, and timeline authors struggle to fit the incident in. However, the police report implies that Schwartz stopped to observe, and Abberline states this explicitly. The man initially talks to the woman and at some indeterminate point after that, he gets violent with her. One could ask, why did Schwartz stop to watch a man and woman speak - what's it to him? That is a question for another post, though. For now, I'll ask a similar question as the one above: Why not accept what the police are telling us about Schwartz stopping? What problem are you trying you trying to solve by replacing this with, at most, a momentary pause?

Regarding Schwartz's location when 'Lipski' is called out, you are right that a diagonal crossing from club to school side places Schwartz almost at the corner. He had been much closer to BS Man. For me, this begs the question - why not let him go? Why wait until Schwartz is walking away, to draw him into the situation that he is now paying much less attention to? Something is not right with this scenario.

[GBinOz]

Here's a thought experiment for people to contemplate. Reference below.

Schwartz made it clear he had reached the gateway when he stopped to watch the altercation in the gateway between the man and the woman. After the man throws the woman onto the footway, Schwartz crosses the street. I've always found this rather odd. If Schwartz had reached the level of the gateway after turning into the street on the club side, he would be mere feet away from the man and woman - essentially at reach out and touch distance. How could this level of proximity not invite drawing him into the fracas?

On crossing he sees Pipeman, who it seems is the intended recipient of the first man's call of 'Lipski'. At that point Schwartz walks away, presumably south as that is the direction of both 22 Ellen St, and the nearest railway arches. I've always found this crossing of the street rather odd, also. If Schwartz wants to proceed to 22 Ellen St, he should stay on the club side of Berner St. On the other hand, if he is going to an address in Berner St that his wife has not moved from in his absence (referring to the Star account), he should still stay on the club side as, South of Fairclough St, that is the side with all the residential addresses (e.g. William Marshall).

There is a way of 'getting around' both of these oddities. Suppose that, instead of turning into Berner St on the club side, so that Schwartz virtually comes face-to-face with the quarrelling couple, he actually turns in on the opposite side - the board school side - and observes the man and woman from across the street. Then, when the woman is thrown to ground, Schwartz crossed the road toward the gateway, not away from it. Presumably, Schwartz is intending to confront the man. Sensing this confrontation, the man calls 'Lipski' to his buddy, who then proceeds toward Schwartz with intent. At this point, Schwartz 'thinks twice' about proceeding with the confrontation, and walks away instead, but finding the second man continues to follow him, he begins to run.

So, in this scenario, Schwartz is not just a passive observer, he intentionally becomes involved. Note how this fits with the press account, in which he is described as an intruder:

... a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

No doubt this scenario will generate as many questions as it provides answers, but I think it's worth some thought.

---

12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski' & then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran so far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far. [Here there is a marginal note. 'The use of "Lipski" increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew'.] Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other. Upon being taken to the mortuary Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen & he thus describes the first man, who threw the woman down: age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

Second man age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Hi Andrew,

I tend to agree with cd's later post in that a lot can be lost or mis-interpreted in translation. My interpretation is that when Schwartz turned into Berner St he noticed a man, who was perhaps a little tipsy, walking down the street in front of him. Due to the man's condition he may have gained on him, but I interpret what he said as when the man reached the gateway rather than when he (Schwartz) reached the gateway. A confrontation occurred between the man and a woman standing in the gateway. IMO, Stride was not thrown to the ground, but pulled away from the attempt to pull her into the street, overbalanced and fell. I see the "three screams that were not very loud" as a translation error for some protestation and I do not believe that Stride, at that stage felt herself in danger.

I think that Schwartz was still some yards from the incident and, if he paused at all, it was only momentarily. IMO he then crossed diagonally and proceeded to walk southward on the eastern side of the road. The scale of the situation is deceptive. Having crossed the road diagonally he is only seconds, not minutes from the intersection. He notices Pipeman and a few seconds later, as he is about to step off the kerb in Fairclough St, turns to see the source of a further commotion at the yard. At this stage he and Pipeman are about equidistant from BSMan. There is a conflict here in reports of whether BSMan shouted "Lipski" at one or the other of the men at the intersection, or whether Pipeman shouted a warning to or at BSMan. At that stage Schwartz decided he had had enough of the situation and removed himself in an expeditious manner.

That's how I see it. YMMV.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Once we read Abberline stating that Schwartz stopped, there is no leeway.

... I am of opinion it [Lipski] was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.

Why hurl an insult after Schwartz crosses the street, going away from the gateway, after Schwartz had been at the gateway watching? It makes little sense. However, if he calls the insult when Schwartz approaches, it makes more sense, as does Abberline's reason for supposing it was called to Schwartz, and not Pipeman.

[c.d.]

Well Schwartz gave his statement through an interpreter. We don't know how proficient he was. Could Schwartz have said something like I was nearing or approaching the gateway or something along those lines? Seems like there is a lot of leeway there.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What is the exact wording of Schwartz's statement regarding his proximity to the gateway?

c.d.

Neither Schwartz's statement nor his inquest testimony survives, as you know. All we have is Swanson's report and later comments from Abberline.

... turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

Schwartz made it very clear, by placing himself level with the gateway, that he knows exactly where the incident occurred. Could Schwartz have observed the fracas from the same footway that Liz was thrown onto, or was he across the street at the time?

Think about this - the man ill-using the woman calls 'Lipski' just after Schwartz is crossing the road and sees the second man. Why bother with the intruding Jew, if he is walking away from the gateway? Is it because our supposedly timid and frightened witness is actually crossing toward the gateway, and thus the first man, and not away from him as has always been supposed?