An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[JeffHamm]

Goldstein is reported (Llyods I think) as going to the Lemon Street police station to identify himself as the man seen by Mortimer on the day after the murder. In the Star, Schwartz is found after he went to the same police station to give his statement with the aid of an interpreter.

It is beyond belief that the same person would go to the same police station wanting to make a statement while pretending to be two different people, one of whom claims not to speak English. The probability of being recognized would be of such concern that to even contemplate such a rise would lead one to go to different police stations at the very least.

Moreover, by giving two statements covering the same time (both men say they were in Berner' about 12:45) further puts him at risk of falling under investigation, especially if his ruse were to become known.

I can see no reason to entertain the suggestion that Schwartz and Goldstein were the same person.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Lewis C. I agree that Schwartz and Goldstein are not the same person. It is true that Schwartz reported seeing an incident. As a witness he has interpreted what he saw in his mind. But there is no reason to suggest he didnt see something.

i have suggested along with others that the distance of Mortimers house to the yard is short. Her house and consequently her viewing point lays level with the club and yard. I am not great at maths but what i am saying is that if she looks out of her window or out of her open front door without protruding her body or head it would be difficult if not impossible to see anything close to or in the yard entrance.

The entire Shwartz incident probably took seconds. If she was indoors for a short period and then went to the door or window and opened them and looked out the angle would allow her to see the other side of the street and to a point in the road or pavement in front of the yard but to see activity at the club yard entrance she would have to step well out of the house.

I may be speaking a load of rubbish (I am sure many are shouting yes)

but maybe its a suggestion as to how the Schwartz incident could have occurred without Mortimer seeing it.

NW

Hi NW,

We know that Fanny Mortimer wasn’t on her doorstep all of the time because she didn’t see Parcelman and friend, PC Smith, Morris Eagle or Joseph Lave but we have no way of tying down what time she was or wasn’t on her doorstep as all of the approximated times have to have a + or - allowed. All that we know is that she spent some time indoors and that she didn’t see or hear the incident. Some would prefer us believe that this meant that Schwartz lied and placed himself at the seen of a knife murder with no one else around to confirm that he himself hadn’t killed Stride. So the far likelier explanation is that Fanny was indoors when the incident took place. As you rightly point out, this incident would have been of only a few seconds duration, and Schwartz said that the woman cried out but not very loudly. So there really isn’t a problem. Fanny was indoors. No doubt with the windows closed. She may even have been in the rear part of the house.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi NW,

We know that Fanny Mortimer wasn’t on her doorstep all of the time because she didn’t see Parcelman and friend, PC Smith, Morris Eagle or Joseph Lave but we have no way of tying down what time she was or wasn’t on her doorstep as all of the approximated times have to have a + or - allowed. All that we know is that she spent some time indoors and that she didn’t see or hear the incident. Some would prefer us believe that this meant that Schwartz lied and placed himself at the seen of a knife murder with no one else around to confirm that he himself hadn’t killed Stride. So the far likelier explanation is that Fanny was indoors when the incident took place. As you rightly point out, this incident would have been of only a few seconds duration, and Schwartz said that the woman cried out but not very loudly. So there really isn’t a problem. Fanny was indoors. No doubt with the windows closed. She may even have been in the rear part of the house.

Except, that's not what Mortimer says.

We know that she couldnt have been at her door when...
Lave
Eagle
Pc Smith
Parcelman
Bs man
Pipeman
Schwartz or
Stride

....were in the street,, because she would have seen at least 1 of them.

However, she states she was at her door for nearly the whole time, ergo, between 12.30am to 1am

But that can't be true.

Based on all the above individuals, the only times Mortimer could have been at her door was...

12.41-12.44am

and/or

12.46am-12.58am

That's a maximum of just 15 minutes out of 30.

That's therefore only half the time between 12.30am - 1am.

So did Mortimer lie, was she mistaken, or did she embellish her statement when she claimed to have been standing by her door nearly the whole time?

Well..we know that Mortimer WAS at her door at some point, because she DID see a man with a black bag.

Her evidence is then proven correct, because Goldstein goes to the police to say that he was the man seen with the black bag.

The question therefore is; if Mortimer told the truth about seeing a man with a black bag, then when did she observe him?

Well, based on the times above, Goldstein could have only been passing at either...

12.41-12.44am or 12.46am-12.58am

in other words, Mortimer's evidence proves that Goldstein could NOT have been Schwartz.... because if she saw Schwartz, she would have seen Bs Man also, and possibly Pipeman.


We also have the witness Brown...who passes by the end of the street after having come out of the shop and who witnesses a couple on the corner of the board school around 12.45am.

But his timing must be wrong, because at the same time Schwartz, Pipeman and Bs man would have been visible to Brown as he passed.

So we have Mortimer exaggerating her time spent at her door and we have Brown also getting his times wrong because he doesn't see or hear Schwartz, Bs man, Pipeman, or any shout of LIPSKI etc...


Brown also doesn't see Schwartz running away from the scene or Pipe man following him.


So it seems that both Brown and Mortimer were both incorrect about their timings.

That leaves the Schwartz incident to occur at around 12.45am like he stated through an interpreter.


Now...

all of this seems rather convoluted; to the point where it could be said, that something doesn't feel right.


However... how peculiar is it, that when we omit Schwartz's statement, we then lose Bs man, Pipeman, the shout of Lipski, and the entire assault that was alleged to have taken place at the same time that Mortimer claims she was at her door (nearly the whole time between 12.30am-1am) and the time that Brown passes the end of the street and sees the couple on the corner of the board school.

If we then look again at the list of names above... Mortimer could have been at her door anytime between 12.41am - 12.58am.

That's now 17 minutes out of 30.

That's only 2 more minutes, but it covers the time through 12.45am when the Schwartz incident should have occurred.

Mortimer's statement proves that Goldstein and Schwartz could not have been the same man.

But it also clashes directly with Schwartz's account based on the respective timings.

Mortimer- sees or hears nothing except for Goldstein

Lave - sees or hears nothing suspicious

Eagle - sees or heard nothing suspicious BUT there were others in the street as he approaches the club.

Brown- sees the couple on the corner

At least 2 people sitting inside the kitchen by the open window of the club- hear nothing





Schwartz - witnesses and assault at the same time BOTH Brown and Mortimer should have at least heard the assault and/or the SHOUT of "LIPSKI!"

Schwartz also brings both Bs man and Pipeman to the party.

And yet nobody else either SEES or HEARS Bs man or Pipeman.

In fact, not one single word that Schwartz says occurred, can be corroborated by any of the other people in and around the yard at or near the time the assault was said to have taken place.

Nobody saw or heard Schwartz running away either.


But still...Schwartz's statement always takes precedence over any of the other witnesses that were there that night.

Always at the expense of Mortimer and Brown.

And always at the expense of everyone who stated they heard or saw nothing suspicious that night.

The faith in Schwartz has always baffled me.

And just because he didn't speak English at the police station, doesn't mean he COULDNT speak English.

Fascinating

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think that too much weight is given to quoted times. We have had timeline’s from Jeff, George, FrankO, Dusty and myself and they all work with the Schwartz incident and Mortimer (naturally they are all fairly similar). Things only get difficult if we begin narrowing down times until they are set in stone. I can’t recall who first made the suggestion (I think that it was either George, FrankO or Jeff) but the best way of viewing events in Berner Street is to do it without times simply because they just can’t be relied on. Plot the events…then add approximate times.

I really don’t think that anyone lied RD. Fanny was simply indoors when the incident occurred. It was short and not very loud. There’s no need for ‘faith’ in Schwartz anymore than we need faith in Morris Eagle or Joseph Lawende or Albert Cadosch. What we would need was evidence that he wasn’t there - which we don’t have, and a reason for him to have lied - which we don’t have. I just don’t see anything mysterious in someone not seeing or hearing something.

For me the only questions are…

1. Did BS man kill Stride?

2. Did someone kill her just after the incident?

3. Was the person that killed her Jack the Ripper.


I tend to favour

1. Yes.

2. No.

3. No.

But I wouldn’t bet much money on being right though.

[Lewis C]

Hello Lewis C. I agree that Schwartz and Goldstein are not the same person. It is true that Schwartz reported seeing an incident. As a witness he has interpreted what he saw in his mind. But there is no reason to suggest he didnt see something.

i have suggested along with others that the distance of Mortimers house to the yard is short. Her house and consequently her viewing point lays level with the club and yard. I am not great at maths but what i am saying is that if she looks out of her window or out of her open front door without protruding her body or head it would be difficult if not impossible to see anything close to or in the yard entrance.

The entire Shwartz incident probably took seconds. If she was indoors for a short period and then went to the door or window and opened them and looked out the angle would allow her to see the other side of the street and to a point in the road or pavement in front of the yard but to see activity at the club yard entrance she would have to step well out of the house.

I may be speaking a load of rubbish (I am sure many are shouting yes)

but maybe its a suggestion as to how the Schwartz incident could have occurred without Mortimer seeing it.

NW

Hi New Waterloo,

I agree that if the Schwartz incident really happened (and I think it did), then Fanny must have not been at her door at that time. What I was getting at was that Fanny saw Goldstein, but she didn't see the Schwartz incident. Therefore, either Goldstein and Schwartz are 2 different people (by far the more likely scenario), or the Schwartz incident didn't happen.

Jeff gave a very good reason why Schwartz and Goldstein must have been 2 different people, good enough that in my mind, the matter is settled.

I have also raised doubt in the past about where exactly Fanny was when she was at her door. It seems to be generally believed that she was outside, but I'm not so sure. She went to the door for the purpose of closing it, and one doesn't need to go outside to close one's door. It's a question of some importance, because her range of vision would have been wider if she was outside than if she was inside, so if she was inside, it might explain some of the things that she didn't see.

[c.d.]

I agree that if the Schwartz incident really happened (and I think it did), then Fanny must have not been at her door at that time.

I think that is the case. The Schwartz/BS man incident must have been very short lived and I keep going back to the fact that Fanny had a sick husband and five children. Had she been inside tending to one of them she could very well have missed it.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

We can get a reasonable estimate for how long the Schwartz event lasted. He enters Berner Street from Commercial, and sees B.S. ahead of him. He's walking south, he crosses to the other side to avoid B.S. and Stride having a confrontation, and at some point runs off. Something like the below, which measures the distance at 418 ft. An average walking speed of 3.1 mph is 4.55 ft/second, which means it would require about 92 seconds, so 1m 32s, without taking into account his running at some point. After that, it depends upon what you have B.S. do and if you don't consider the Scwartz event over until B.S. is out of Berner Street (rather than just when Schwartz leaves the area). If he's Stride's killer, that wouldn't require much time, and then a bit of time to leave the area. Even if he just walked north to Commercial, that would be about 370 ft, so another 1m 21s, placing the entire event under 3 minutes. If he heads south, he's out of the street in a handful of seconds.



- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree that if the Schwartz incident really happened (and I think it did), then Fanny must have not been at her door at that time.

I think that is the case. The Schwartz/BS man incident must have been very short lived and I keep going back to the fact that Fanny had a sick husband and five children. Had she been inside tending to one of them she could very well have missed it.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

I was once criticised for suggesting that Fanny might have been at the rear of the house but she could have been doing anything. Even the act of talking to someone (her husband) can block out three shouts from a distance away. A couple of kids arguing. These places had outside toilets too of course. The incident was hardly a Led Zeppelin soundcheck.

[The Rookie Detective]

What did Mortimer actually say?

"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half past twelve and one o'clock."

If Mortimer was telling the truth and wasn't mistaken, then her words prove that she stood at her door for nearly the whole time between 12.30am and 1am.

It also proves that Fanny did NOT stand at her door the WHOLE time, meaning that she DID go back inside qt some point during that time period.

She didn't see or hear Lave
She didn't see or hear Eagle who tried the locked club door
She didn't see or hear Schwartz who walked past her door.
She didn't see or hear Bs man who was within yards of her door when spotted by Schwartz
She didn't see Pipeman
She didn't see the assault of Stride being thrown down on the floor.
She didn't hear the shout of "Lipski!"
She didn't see or hear Mr Letchford walk down the street
She doesn't see Miss Letchford standing at her door (number 30 - located in opposite direction to the club)
She didn't see or hear Parcelman
She didn't see or hear Stride
She didn't see PC Smith

So based on all the above...

When exactly COULD Fanny have been standing at her door?

"nearly the whole time"

Really?

Was she lying?

Well, we know that she DID see Goldstein walk very fast down the road and observed him as he looked up at the club.

The sound of Mortimer opening her door and observing Goldstein must have been known by Goldstein himself.

Why would Goldstein go to the police station and say he was the man who walked past the murder site close to the time of the murder?

He must have known that he was seen by Mortimer.

That proves that Mortimer WAS at her door at some point.

But when could Goldstein have been seen by Mortimer?

Well we can be certain that Goldstein passed the murder site when NOBODY else was in the section of Berner Street between Mortimer's door and the club.

But what about those measured footsteps that Mortimer also claimed to have heard pass her door?

Well... Mortimer never actually said she heard a man walk past her door, as the newspaper report was written in the 3RD person and wasn't a direct quote from Mortimer herself; unlike the other report that is written in 1st person context.


This is important because the idea that Mortimer was standing at her door for around 10 minutes, is not factually correct.

Mortimer never said anything about being at her door for 10 minutes.

We also have Charles Letchford who lived at number 30, and who stated that his sister was at the door at 12.50am.
We don't know how long she was standing there, but she didn't observe Goldstein, or more precisely, according to Charles, his sister; "did not see anyone pass by."

That means that Goldstein didn't walk down the street when Miss Letchford was at her door.

Miss Letchford also didn't see Schwartz or Bs Man. Both men, or at least Schwartz, would have walked directly past Miss Letchford as she stood at her door.

We also have Brown whose time of 12.45am is ruled out due to the alleged assault on Stride having taken place at the same time.

Mortimer also mentions in her statement...

"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

Brown also sees a couple at the corner of the street.

So the question is; why did the couple on the corner; who spoke to Mortimer after the murder, not HEAR the assault on Stride that was alleged to have taken place around 12.45am?

It suggests that either the assault didn't happen, or that the couple arrived AFTER Schwartz runs off.

We also have an "open window" or the kitchen, and an "ajar" door to the side of the club house, and at least 1 woman located inside, who heard nothing.

We also have Mortimer again, who clearly states
"There was certainly no noise made and I did not observe ANYONE ENTER the gates."

She also states...
"The deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house."

This is based on the fact that the man who she observed touch Stride's face and said "it was quite warm."

Mortimer also states "If a man had come out of the yard before 1'o'clock, I must have seen him."


So...

What can we take from all this?

Well if we accept what Mortimer actually said, then it supports the idea that Stride was murdered quickly and silently by a man in the yard, very close to 1am.

We have...

Morris Eagle
Joseph Lave
Charles Letchford
Miss Letchford
Fanny Mortimer
James Brown
Pc Smith
Leon Goldstein
The stewards wife in the kitchen
The young man and his sweetheart on the corner.

That's 11 people who were in vicinity of the murder; and who could all either see or hear clearly, between 12.30am and 1am.

And then we have Schwartz who is the only witness to come forward and state (via a translator) that an assault occurred around 12.45am.

For his account to be true and accurate we have to...

Move Brown's timing
Move Mortimer inside her house
Accept that Eagle, Lave, Pc Smith and Miss Mortimer missed everything.
Accept that the woman sitting by the open window and ajar door had a hearing impediment.
Accept that the couple on the corner didn't notice a man shout "LIPSKI!" or a man running away, or a man with a pipe following him briefly.

When we take the brave step of realising and accepting that everything that Schwartz said, just doesn't fit, the we can look at WHY he came forward to the police in the first place.

The theatrical looking, non- English speaking Jew who saw Stride being assaulted by a man who then turned his attentions elsewhere by shouting an anti-semitic slur...

that nobody heard.

Nobody saw or heard Bs Man
Nobody saw or heard Pipeman
Nobody has been able to find Schwartz

He also ran away as far as the trainline (according to Swanson)

That also doesn't fit geographically

There's also confusion as to what side of the road Pipe man was standing.
Regardless, neither Brown or the couple on the corner saw Pipeman anyway.

And what about the reaction of Stride having been assaulted by Bs man as she was thrown down to the floor?

Well, rather conveniently, Stride chooses to scream 3 times "but not very loudly."

How convenient for Schwartz.

He observes the only woman in history who is suddenly attacked but who chooses to not scream or shout her head off for someone to help her, but instead let's out 3 muted screams; presumably in a bid to not raise the alarm and get help.

If Bs Man did in fact assault Stride, then her odd reaction strongly implies that she knew him personally.

But what really helps Schwartz observing the assault and hearing the shout of "LIPSKI!" Is that it takes the attention away from the possibility of the killer having been a Jewish, and the killer having been involved with the club.

Infact, Schwartz presents Bs Man as a random aggressive gentile (non Jew) who assaults Stride yards away from where she was murdered.

The thing is; Schwartz had no idea that there was a woman sitting in the kitchen just yards away or that there was a couple standing at the corner and within earshot.

That either means that Schwartz wasn't even there, or that he was, but was either mistaken or lied.

Or course, Schwartz may indeed be the only witness who told the truth, and the woman in the kitchen, the couple on the corner, and several local residents; including Mortimer, were all wrong or lying about what they stated they DIDN'T see or hear.

If someone lies by saying they heard or saw nothing, the they may be scared to tell the truth and/or don't want to get involved.
But if someone lies by saying they saw and heard everything (Schwartz) the it's because they want attention and/or have a hidden agenda.


It's also convenient that Schwartz didn't speak a word of English.
Who would suspect a man who didn't speak English?

I have an ongoing theory regarding Schwartz, and it's a work in progress at the moment, but it may explain why Schwartz came to the police.

Lots to ponder