An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[NotBlamedForNothing]

you’re trying to make sense of something that did not happen.

Mortimer did not see the man in the court, in Dutfield’s yard. Dew’s description is wrong.

Off course he is wrong. I'm simply wondering if two women had similar stories which have been conflated.

[New Waterloo]

Thank you George for the map. I wrongly assumed that the numbering on Christian Street ran lower and rising from the Commercial Road end. Where 22 is on your map clearly shows his route home was sensible and understandable. Sorry all.
the route is interesting in that I guess he must have walked by some main characters on his way. Thanks for clearing that up George. Got to get my brain engaged again!

NW

[GBinOz]

Hi NW,

This map reveals all, showing Goldstein's presumed walk home from the Spectacle Coffee House.

https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVPMy6zMo=/

Cheer, George

[New Waterloo]

Having said that i guess it depends where no 22 Christian st is. I am assuming its more towards Commercial rd but may be wrong
NW

[New Waterloo]

Thanks Herlock very helpful. It looks to me that if going home to 22 Christian Street from Spectacle alley. I would walk to commercial road head West along Commercial Road till i reached Christian street. It would seem to suggest that Goldstein intended walking through Berner Street and by the club. I cant see why he would walk up tp fairclough and then back track down christian street towards Commercial road again. I think he wanted to look at the club for whatever reason or go there. Maybe he did. Seems slightly odd to me.

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think this may be important. Leon Goldstein says that he came from Spectacle alley (which I cannot find in the map) towards home. But he lived at 22 Christian Street. It seems as if he walked past the club on purpose because there were lots of opportunities to not go past the club in my opinion. He goes past the club would have to turn left into Fairclough and then walk along taking a left into Christian street and walking back down to 22. Unless i have got it wrong. I am assuming Spectacle alley was North of Commercial Street. Help please thank you

N W

Hi NW,

Im about as good with geography as I am with tech but I just checked on JtRForums and saw it mentioned that Spectacle Alley is now called Whitechurch Passage E1 which is off Whitechurch Lane which in turn is off Whitechapel High Street. It’s the left turning after Altab Ali Park which was the site of the old St Mary Matfelon church.

[New Waterloo]

I think this may be important. Leon Goldstein says that he came from Spectacle alley (which I cannot find in the map) towards home. But he lived at 22 Christian Street. It seems as if he walked past the club on purpose because there were lots of opportunities to not go past the club in my opinion. He goes past the club would have to turn left into Fairclough and then walk along taking a left into Christian street and walking back down to 22. Unless i have got it wrong. I am assuming Spectacle alley was North of Commercial Street. Help please thank you

N W

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks. Why do suppose Dew was so convinced that Fanny Mortimer was probably the only person to have seen the Ripper at a crime scene?

Faulty memory and a reliance on a small stash of newspaper reports from the time. Initially, it was believed that Stride was murdered earlier than 1am and that Mortimer's Black Bag Man was her likely killer. Moreover, since Chapman there rose a train of thought that the Whitechapel murderer was a medical man (i.e. black bag). Police confusing characters from the case years later is rampant and, perhaps, to be expected. IIRC Dew confused Paul and Cross, and Macnaghten appears to put three Jews in Berner Street (instead of Mitre Square) and makes PC Smith a City PC witness (which he excises in his second draft). In fact, you see it all the time on Casebook posts. It's easy to confuse John Davis with John Richardson or Wynne Baxter with Bagster Phillips if you haven't thought about the case in some years to any depth. It's no different for men writing in the 20th century about something that occupied their time only briefly in the century prior.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Kattrup]

Your reading of Dew makes sense, but not entirely. Consider this snippet.

The man's movements had been so quiet that she had not seen him until he was abreast of her. His head was turned away, as though he did not wish to be seen.

That would mean he walked right by her, in the backyard of the club, but she didn't see him until he was in the near darkness of the alleyway. At that point, he would have no need to turn his head away - he would be facing away from her. Yet somehow, she noticed the man had a shiny black bag. Would it make more sense to suppose this occurred out on the street?

you’re trying to make sense of something that did not happen.

Mortimer did not see the man in the court, in Dutfield’s yard. Dew’s description is wrong.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, Dew is not reliable. However, it's worth noting that Mortimer is referred to by several people many years after the events. Schwartz is completely forgotten about come November 1888. I don't know what that means, just that it's worth noting.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks. Why do suppose Dew was so convinced that Fanny Mortimer was probably the only person to have seen the Ripper at a crime scene?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Not

I think it’s important to leave Dew out of it, if one wants to know what happened in 1888.

In this case, he thinks Mortimer lived on the south side of Dutfield’s Yard.

On the map you posted, where the text “Matthew Packer’s” appears, there were three (perhaps four?) small tenements, these are the cottages he mentions. Dew thinks Mortimer lived in one of them, and so the man she saw opposite the court was walking along the north side of the yard, i.e. along the southernmost wall of nr. 40. Where Stride was found.

So, Dew is useless, leave him out of it.

Hi Kattrup.

Dew isn't really the point here. The point is that the neighbour is an uneasy fit with Mrs Mortimer. Where then was this woman, at what time, who did she see, and where did the man come from?

So, why did I bring Dew into it? I think he was getting Fanny mixed up with another woman - just as I suggest we have too. His confusion might suggest that there was confusion at the time as to who saw what and when.

Your reading of Dew makes sense, but not entirely. Consider this snippet.

The man's movements had been so quiet that she had not seen him until he was abreast of her. His head was turned away, as though he did not wish to be seen.

That would mean he walked right by her, in the backyard of the club, but she didn't see him until he was in the near darkness of the alleyway. At that point, he would have no need to turn his head away - he would be facing away from her. Yet somehow, she noticed the man had a shiny black bag. Would it make more sense to suppose this occurred out on the street?

Whatever the case, we can leave Dew out, and a critical question remains. If Mortimer did not see Goldstein twice, how do we account for the north-bound excursion of a man with a black bag?

[The Baron]

Yes, Dew is not reliable. However, it's worth noting that Mortimer is referred to by several people many years after the events. Schwartz is completely forgotten about come November 1888. I don't know what that means, just that it's worth noting.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Agree


The Baron

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, Dew is not reliable. However, it's worth noting that Mortimer is referred to by several people many years after the events. Schwartz is completely forgotten about come November 1888. I don't know what that means, just that it's worth noting.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Herlock Sholmes]

As Kattrup rightly said…Dew’s memories aren’t the most reliable. I wouldn’t base anything on what he said.

I don’t really see how it can be doubted that these ‘two’ women were Fanny Mortimer who said that, before she went onto her doorstep for the final time, the only person that she had seen was the man with the black bag (Goldstein) “…who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.” The Evening News interview where the woman (Fanny) describes “a young man walking up Berner-street” is surely more likely to have been an error when the journalist wrote up his story from his notes combined with a fallible memory. It’s difficult to think of any reason why Fanny would have neglected to have mentioned seeing this same man twice had she done so. The police interviewed Goldstein and were clearly satisfied with his explanation and, although we have no evidence for this, it would hardly have been surprising had they gone to the coffee house in Spectacle Alley and checked his movements.

More tricky to explain of course is: “He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially.”

I have to admit to being wary of any report though where the text lapses into the vernacular with the ‘cor blimey guv’nor’ talk which always smacks, to me, of an effort to add local colour. So for me I think it possible/probable that because Leon Goldstein was Jewish (and possibly/probably looked Jewish) Fanny told the reporter something like that he might have been a club member and that Saturday was a night when people like Goldstein went to the club. Maybe she was suggesting why he’d looked toward the club.

Yes, I fully accept that this isn’t an ‘explanation’ that we can say “yes, that’s what must have happened,” but it’s a plausible explanation imo.

I know that we’ve been here before but I just don’t think that there is anything suspicious about Leon Goldstein. As a man seen in the area ‘around’ the time of the murder he would have been checked out by the police.

[Kattrup]

Hi Not

I think it’s important to leave Dew out of it, if one wants to know what happened in 1888.

In this case, he thinks Mortimer lived on the south side of Dutfield’s Yard.

On the map you posted, where the text “Matthew Packer’s” appears, there were three (perhaps four?) small tenements, these are the cottages he mentions. Dew thinks Mortimer lived in one of them, and so the man she saw opposite the court was walking along the north side of the yard, i.e. along the southernmost wall of nr. 40. Where Stride was found.

So, Dew is useless, leave him out of it.