Is He In The Mix?

[Lewis C]

Severin Klosowski
- a proven serial killer, that is practically a unique trait among the Ripper suspects (Deeming does not count, nothing but rumours connect him to the Whitechapel murders)

Neither Deeming, nor Klosowski, nor Bury has a known connection to the WC murders. The only decent suspect that does have a known connection is Hutchinson.

[C. F. Leon]

Neither Deeming, nor Klosowski, nor Bury has a known connection to the WC murders. The only decent suspect that does have a known connection is Hutchinson.

Kidney, Schwartz, McCarthy, and Cross/Lechemere do also, which is more than can be said about Gull, Kosminsky, Druitt or even Cohen. But they have the SAME problem as Hutchinson- they at best can only be connected to one PARTICULAR murder, and none of the others (other than living in same general area) and, frankly, can be excluded on other grounds.

[Indian Harry]

Does anyone think it possible, or even likely, that the ripper was someone already mentioned in the case (apart from Cross who gets enough attention elsewhere)?

If it's someone hiding in plain sight I like John Richardson or a horse slaughterer at the Buck's Row sight.

[Lewis C]

Kidney, Schwartz, McCarthy, and Cross/Lechemere do also, which is more than can be said about Gull, Kosminsky, Druitt or even Cohen. But they have the SAME problem as Hutchinson- they at best can only be connected to one PARTICULAR murder, and none of the others (other than living in same general area) and, frankly, can be excluded on other grounds.

I don't think that any of those other people are decent suspects, but granted, it's a matter of opinion.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If it's someone hiding in plain sight I like John Richardson or a horse slaughterer at the Buck's Row sight.

There was a bit of talk about Richardson a while back Harry. I don’t personally think that he was the ripper but I certainly take your point. There’s more than might be construed as notable about Richardson than there is against Cross. I often think, when I look at an old photograph or a piece of film footage, that the ripper could easily be there looking back at the camera or walking along a street.

[Abby Normal]

Neither Deeming, nor Klosowski, nor Bury has a known connection to the WC murders. The only decent suspect that does have a known connection is Hutchinson.

agree a bout deeming and hutch. but chapman and bury were suspected at one time by contemp police, so imho that qualifies as a connection.

[Lewis C]

agree a bout deeming and hutch. but chapman and bury were suspected at one time by contemp police, so imho that qualifies as a connection.

You could look at it that way. Perhaps Fernglas could clarify what he means by being "connected to the Whitechapel murders".

[The Rookie Detective]

Agree that on the medical knowledge question there are conflicting views. Mitre Square in my honest opinion points towards the Ripper having quite a bit of medical knowledge. Going by Dr. Phillips post mortem, as said he could retrace the steps the Ripper made and would have operated similarly himself. Circumventing the navel and the sygmoid put in was surgeon´s knowledge back then, not something the general populace knew and even today few people outside the medical jobs know this. We also have to remember that JtR "worked" under time pressure and in very adverse conditions. Mitre Square was nearly full dark and Kati was lying on the ground, not on an operating table. I theorise that the Ripper became aware that he ****ed up in Mitre Square, giving out an example of his skills and that he then did some more post-op mutilations to muddy the waters again.

I know some Ripper researchers scoff at the idea JtR could have had medical knowledge and point to some mutilations and misses, but they willfully overlook the situation. With the exception of Kelly, all attacks were outside, done under time pressure, under really bad lighting conditions on the ground, not an ER room. That Jack did not total butchery like the victims looking like having landed on a grenade, points towards existing medical knowledge or if he really was an amateur, considerable talent.

Excellent post.

I think the underlying point is that it's easier to muddy the water and deliberately inflict random cuts in a bid to try and conceal him having surgical and anatomical knowledge, that it would be to deliberately inflict some skillful cuts to conceal him having no surgical or anatomical knowledge.
The latter would be nonsensical and rather pointless.


When we look at the fact that...

He almost took her head off
He almost took her face off
He inflicted some cuts in a manner that even a surgeon would need time to produce.
He worked in silence, despite some cuts appearing frenzied.
He worked in near darkness



He did all this in a matter of minutes.


These are very specific parameters; that when combined, give us a condensed framework and a narrowing of the possibilities of what could have transpired that night.


It's almost certain that as PC Harvey walked down Church passage, the Ripper was in the process of mutilating Eddowes in the corner.

That then extends the time parameters slightly, but gives the Ripper time to do what he did.

Ultimately, the Ripper was someone who had some skill with a knife and knew how to cut.

That said; there's a high probability that the Ripper inadvertently cut himself when he was mutilating Eddowes.

Hence why he cut a piece of her apron and took it with him.

The torn piece of apron wasn't a trophy, because he subsequently placed/dropped it.

The apron was taken perhaps so that the killer could link the murder with the chalked message.... or because he cut himself and needed to stem the flow of blood by using a piece of apron.

Seeing as that the apron was covered in faeces, it's then also a possibility that the killer may have picked up an infection from the self inflicted cut.

Perhaps he wasn't as skillful as he thought he was, and the reason why October passed without any murders...he was ill from an infected wound.

I would check all the individuals who were hospitalised with an infected hand wound, between the murders of Eddowes and Kelly.

The double event was potentially a balls up from beginning to end for the Ripper.

He can't do what he wanted with Stride and so is pumped up to go and find another victim.

But cleverly chooses a location that crosses over durisdiction.

He then obliterates Eddowes, but cuts himself in the process.

He then takes a month to recover before realising that he need to kill a victim indoors the next time around.

Kelly is then his swansong of the series.

The idea that the killer was skillful with a knife is one thing. But the frenzied manner of his blitz attacks, also increases the likelihood that he must have cut himself at some point.

That's logical.


Anyone who inflicts the kind of wounds that he did on his victims, would almost certainly make a mistake at some point, particularly in the dark.


Someone who knew to kill Eddowes across durisdiction and know the police beats the way he did, would perhaps suggest an ex-police officer.

Or a police surgeon.

Or a butcher who had previously served as a police officer

If not, then he knew the police routine better than they did.

That denotes intelligence and not someone who ran around as a lunatic screaming.


Lots to ponder.

[Abby Normal]

Excellent post.

I think the underlying point is that it's easier to muddy the water and deliberately inflict random cuts in a bid to try and conceal him having surgical and anatomical knowledge, that it would be to deliberately inflict some skillful cuts to conceal him having no surgical or anatomical knowledge.
The latter would be nonsensical and rather pointless.


When we look at the fact that...

He almost took her head off
He almost took her face off
He inflicted some cuts in a manner that even a surgeon would need time to produce.
He worked in silence, despite some cuts appearing frenzied.
He worked in near darkness



He did all this in a matter of minutes.


These are very specific parameters; that when combined, give us a condensed framework and a narrowing of the possibilities of what could have transpired that night.


It's almost certain that as PC Harvey walked down Church passage, the Ripper was in the process of mutilating Eddowes in the corner.

That then extends the time parameters slightly, but gives the Ripper time to do what he did.

Ultimately, the Ripper was someone who had some skill with a knife and knew how to cut.

That said; there's a high probability that the Ripper inadvertently cut himself when he was mutilating Eddowes.

Hence why he cut a piece of her apron and took it with him.

The torn piece of apron wasn't a trophy, because he subsequently placed/dropped it.

The apron was taken perhaps so that the killer could link the murder with the chalked message.... or because he cut himself and needed to stem the flow of blood by using a piece of apron.

Seeing as that the apron was covered in faeces, it's then also a possibility that the killer may have picked up an infection from the self inflicted cut.

Perhaps he wasn't as skillful as he thought he was, and the reason why October passed without any murders...he was ill from an infected wound.

I would check all the individuals who were hospitalised with an infected hand wound, between the murders of Eddowes and Kelly.

The double event was potentially a balls up from beginning to end for the Ripper.

He can't do what he wanted with Stride and so is pumped up to go and find another victim.

But cleverly chooses a location that crosses over durisdiction.

He then obliterates Eddowes, but cuts himself in the process.

He then takes a month to recover before realising that he need to kill a victim indoors the next time around.

Kelly is then his swansong of the series.

The idea that the killer was skillful with a knife is one thing. But the frenzied manner of his blitz attacks, also increases the likelihood that he must have cut himself at some point.

That's logical.


Anyone who inflicts the kind of wounds that he did on his victims, would almost certainly make a mistake at some point, particularly in the dark.


Someone who knew to kill Eddowes across durisdiction and know the police beats the way he did, would perhaps suggest an ex-police officer.

Or a police surgeon.

Or a butcher who had previously served as a police officer

If not, then he knew the police routine better than they did.

That denotes intelligence and not someone who ran around as a lunatic screaming.


Lots to ponder.

hi rd
excellent point re checking the hospital records of men admitted with a cut/infected hand between the eddowes and kelly murders.

does anyone know if this research has been done before?

[Tani]

Always found this guy suspicious as killers like to join crowds talking about their murders.

Just a passing fancy.

Pg 60 of the 1994 edition of Sugden,

The story that the murders had been committed by a gang of robbers had been published that morning in the papers and was widely credited by the gullible Buck’s Row tattlers. But one bystander dismissed it. ‘That’s a got up yarn,” he scoffed. ‘I rather wish it was true. If there was a gang like that, one or t’other of em ’d split before long, and it’d all come out. Bet your money this ain’t been done that way.’



And for those interested, the accent may match the Lusk letter.

[Fernglas]

You could look at it that way. Perhaps Fernglas could clarify what he means by being "connected to the Whitechapel murders".

Certainly I can! Over the years I looked up the main suspects and I am still amazed how some persons could land on that list. Deeming is one of those. Simple rumours and his brutal murders was all needed to make him a suspect of some people. Deeming was in South Africa during the "Ripper autumn", he could not have been JtR.

It is very much different with Klosowski, here are some points why I consider him the prime suspect
- a proven serial killer, that is practically a unique trait among the strong Ripper suspects
- had solid medical knowledge
- lived in Whitechapel, e.g. the Tabram murder site was just a stonethrow away from his shop
- neither the C5 nor other possible Ripper murders predate his arrival in England
- Gaps like e.g. the Double event to Kelly fit with family affairs of Klosowski and for a time he was in Amerika, the murders completely stopped when he went away
- in Amerika he nearly killed one of his wifes with a knife (only arrival of possible witnesses stopped him)
- a Janusface. Klosowski could be charming if he wanted, but was a misogyn sadist
- extreme sadism, Antimon poisoning is a terrible way to die and Klosowski loved seeing it
- while composites are problematic, Klosowski fits them (meaning he is e.g. neither too small or too tall)
- Hutchinson´s description also fits him, quite well actually
- very high sex drive (there was a clear sexual component to the murders)
- worked in a normal job (important since the murders occured only on weekends and holidays, the Ripper obviously worked normally and was not a tramp or so)
- it is one thing to murder persons few would miss in the near lawless slum Whitechapel was, another to murder women you married from a higher social standing who would definitely be missed. Klosowski had to change his M.O. here and he did
- He became Abberline´s main suspect once Abberline red more about Klosowski. That did not happen by chance and some of Abberline´s wording hints at knowledge the police kept secret

[GBinOz]

The apron was taken perhaps so that the killer could link the murder with the chalked message.... or because he cut himself and needed to stem the flow of blood by using a piece of apron.

Seeing as that the apron was covered in faeces, it's then also a possibility that the killer may have picked up an infection from the self inflicted cut.

Perhaps he wasn't as skillful as he thought he was, and the reason why October passed without any murders...he was ill from an infected wound.

I would check all the individuals who were hospitalised with an infected hand wound, between the murders of Eddowes and Kelly.

The Star, 12 October, 1888

"A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.
A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance."

Sheffield Evening Telegraph 12 October, 1888

"... The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances."

Hampshire Advertiser, 13 October, 1888

"A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance."

[Lewis C]

Certainly I can! Over the years I looked up the main suspects and I am still amazed how some persons could land on that list. Deeming is one of those. Simple rumours and his brutal murders was all needed to make him a suspect of some people. Deeming was in South Africa during the "Ripper autumn", he could not have been JtR.

It is very much different with Klosowski, here are some points why I consider him the prime suspect
- a proven serial killer, that is practically a unique trait among the strong Ripper suspects
- had solid medical knowledge
- lived in Whitechapel, e.g. the Tabram murder site was just a stonethrow away from his shop
- neither the C5 nor other possible Ripper murders predate his arrival in England
- Gaps like e.g. the Double event to Kelly fit with family affairs of Klosowski and for a time he was in Amerika, the murders completely stopped when he went away
- in Amerika he nearly killed one of his wifes with a knife (only arrival of possible witnesses stopped him)
- a Janusface. Klosowski could be charming if he wanted, but was a misogyn sadist
- extreme sadism, Antimon poisoning is a terrible way to die and Klosowski loved seeing it
- while composites are problematic, Klosowski fits them (meaning he is e.g. neither too small or too tall)
- Hutchinson´s description also fits him, quite well actually
- very high sex drive (there was a clear sexual component to the murders)
- worked in a normal job (important since the murders occured only on weekends and holidays, the Ripper obviously worked normally and was not a tramp or so)
- it is one thing to murder persons few would miss in the near lawless slum Whitechapel was, another to murder women you married from a higher social standing who would definitely be missed. Klosowski had to change his M.O. here and he did
- He became Abberline´s main suspect once Abberline red more about Klosowski. That did not happen by chance and some of Abberline´s wording hints at knowledge the police kept secret

Hi Fernglas,

The question wasn't why you suspect Chapman. You previously said, "Deeming does not count, nothing but rumours connect him to the Whitechapel murders." My question was, what do you mean by being connected to the WC murders? From my point of view, the only people with a known connection to the murders are people known to have been at one of the murder sites near the time when the murder happened. Maybe you could also include people like Joseph Barnett (known to have had a relationship with a victim). But maybe your idea of having a connection is different from that. If so, what constitutes a connection for you?

It was once thought that Deeming was either in South Africa or in jail at the time of the Ripper murders, but we now know that he was in England at the time. See Ripperologist 142 (Feb 2015), page 91. The words are those of Paul Begg.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

The only one that I can think of HIB is M.J. Trow’s book Quest For A Killer (2009) in which he proposes Robert Mann. There might have been a documentary but I can’t recall it.

That's the man!! Thanks!