Is He In The Mix?

[Fernglas]

I agree that there's more to the case against Klosowski that just being a proven killer, but my take on medical knowledge is a little different from yours. There are conflicting views on how much medical or anatomical knowledge the Ripper would have needed to have, but if he did need to have a certain amount of that, then any suspect who has less than that couldn't have been the Ripper. However, if no such knowledge was needed, someone who did have that knowledge could still have been the Ripper. So all else being equal (as it never is), the suspect with more such knowledge is a better suspect than the one with less.

Klosowski was also Abberline's #1 suspect, even if he only became that 14 years later. That indicates that Abberline didn't make a rush to judgement. And Klosowski lived in a favorable location.

Agree that on the medical knowledge question there are conflicting views. Mitre Square in my honest opinion points towards the Ripper having quite a bit of medical knowledge. Going by Dr. Phillips post mortem, as said he could retrace the steps the Ripper made and would have operated similarly himself. Circumventing the navel and the sygmoid put in was surgeon´s knowledge back then, not something the general populace knew and even today few people outside the medical jobs know this. We also have to remember that JtR "worked" under time pressure and in very adverse conditions. Mitre Square was nearly full dark and Kati was lying on the ground, not on an operating table. I theorise that the Ripper became aware that he ****ed up in Mitre Square, giving out an example of his skills and that he then did some more post-op mutilations to muddy the waters again.

I know some Ripper researchers scoff at the idea JtR could have had medical knowledge and point to some mutilations and misses, but they willfully overlook the situation. With the exception of Kelly, all attacks were outside, done under time pressure, under really bad lighting conditions on the ground, not an ER room. That Jack did not total butchery like the victims looking like having landed on a grenade, points towards existing medical knowledge or if he really was an amateur, considerable talent.

[John Wheat]

Agree that on the medical knowledge question there are conflicting views. Mitre Square in my honest opinion points towards the Ripper having quite a bit of medical knowledge. Going by Dr. Phillips post mortem, as said he could retrace the steps the Ripper made and would have operated similarly himself. Circumventing the navel and the sygmoid put in was surgeon´s knowledge back then, not something the general populace knew and even today few people outside the medical jobs know this. We also have to remember that JtR "worked" under time pressure and in very adverse conditions. Mitre Square was nearly full dark and Kati was lying on the ground, not on an operating table. I theorise that the Ripper became aware that he ****ed up in Mitre Square, giving out an example of his skills and that he then did some more post-op mutilations to muddy the waters again.

I know some Ripper researchers scoff at the idea JtR could have had medical knowledge and point to some mutilations and misses, but they willfully overlook the situation. With the exception of Kelly, all attacks were outside, done under time pressure, under really bad lighting conditions on the ground, not an ER room. That Jack did not total butchery like the victims looking like having landed on a grenade, points towards existing medical knowledge or if he really was an amateur, considerable talent.

I completely disagree with this the victims were butchered. Besides many serial killers begin with killing animals perhaps Jack learnt some knowledge from doing exactly that.

[Duran duren]

Agreed John. I look at those pics of Kate and I see no medical knowledge or skill.

[Fernglas]

Agreed John. I look at those pics of Kate and I see no medical knowledge or skill.

Sorry to tell you this, but that is exactly what the Ripper wants you to believe!
Read the post mortem by Doc Phillips. He retraced the steps the Ripper did get to the kidney. These steps are actually nearly the same Doctor Phillips would have done if he wanted to remove a kidney. Circumventing the navel and the sygmoid "packaging" were medical knowledge back then, far fewer people knew of this in 1888. In addition the mutilations done to Kati postdate(!) the kidney removal.
And finally look at the circumstances in Mitre Square, nearly full darkness, the victim lying on the ground, not an operating table and JtR knew he had mere minutes until the next bobby would show up. Under these circumstances his kidney removal was frakking great, when it comes to skill.
Only after(!) he removed the kidney he assaulted the dying Kati with the knive, letting out his aggression, hate, thrill on her body and at the same time covering up his considerable medical skills. Even in death, the Ripper wins every time someone sees the pics and thinks he was nothing but a savage stabber.

I would agree with you if the Ripper would have slashed around like a madman (well he was one but that is another area),truncing his victems like a bomb gone off. But that is NOT the sequence. He did his "surgery" first, only then he fully let out the evil in him.
Once again, the Ripper did not operate in a state of the art ER room, but under time pressure, under abomiable lighting and kneeling on the ground. The kidney removal under such circumstances shows considerable skill or massive talent, if he truly was an amateur. The mutilations were simply the dot on the I of his deranged mind.

[John Wheat]

Sorry to tell you this, but that is exactly what the Ripper wants you to believe!
Read the post mortem by Doc Phillips. He retraced the steps the Ripper did get to the kidney. These steps are actually nearly the same Doctor Phillips would have done if he wanted to remove a kidney. Circumventing the navel and the sygmoid "packaging" were medical knowledge back then, far fewer people knew of this in 1888. In addition the mutilations done to Kati postdate(!) the kidney removal.
And finally look at the circumstances in Mitre Square, nearly full darkness, the victim lying on the ground, not an operating table and JtR knew he had mere minutes until the next bobby would show up. Under these circumstances his kidney removal was frakking great, when it comes to skill.
Only after(!) he removed the kidney he assaulted the dying Kati with the knive, letting out his aggression, hate, thrill on her body and at the same time covering up his considerable medical skills. Even in death, the Ripper wins every time someone sees the pics and thinks he was nothing but a savage stabber.

I would agree with you if the Ripper would have slashed around like a madman (well he was one but that is another area),truncing his victems like a bomb gone off. But that is NOT the sequence. He did his "surgery" first, only then he fully let out the evil in him.
Once again, the Ripper did not operate in a state of the art ER room, but under time pressure, under abomiable lighting and kneeling on the ground. The kidney removal under such circumstances shows considerable skill or massive talent, if he truly was an amateur. The mutilations were simply the dot on the I of his deranged mind.

As I said I completely disagree with this line of thinking the Ripper was no surgeon.

[Fernglas]

As I said I completely disagree with this line of thinking the Ripper was no surgeon.

Point one, I never said JtR was a surgeon, but Mitre Square shows he had some useful medical skills or real and great talent, if he was an amateur. The kidney removal and how it was done is not explainable otherwise. As I told Duran Duren, I would agree with both of you, if he would have went in, slashing about until he reached the kidney and took it. Since murder was his intent, being careful how he gets the organ was not necessary, but that is not what happened.
The Ripper went for the kidney in a way Doctors could recognise, retrace and would have done similarly themselves. And that under time pressure, in near darkness on your knees.
Put yourself in the Ripper´s place for a moment. You want that kidney, no matter what. You are not in a nice, shiny medical ward, but in Mitre Square, under time pressure, in near darkness on your knees, high on adrenaline. Could you reproduce a kidney removal like the Ripper did, on which Doctors Brown and Phillips commented that the "the perpetrator of the act must have had considerable knowledge of the position of the organs in the abdominal cavity and the way of removing them. It required a great deal of medical knowledge to have removed the kidney"(Doc Brown, City Police). Remember, in 1888 medical knowledge of any kind was far more rare among the populace than today.

JtR did not butcher out the kidney, that would also have been commented on, he did so in a way medical doctors of the time also did and under very adverse circumstances. It is teleologically sound to posit that Jack had, in whatever form it came, some solid medical knowledge. The (getting more severe over the run of the series) mutilations were a fetish of JtR and also a way for him to cover up his skills and knowledge.

Mitre Square does not rule out a medical amateur, but any suspect with medical knowledge of any kind, like e.g. Klosowski, is far more likely to be the Ripper than a raving lunatic like Kelly.

[John Wheat]

Point one, I never said JtR was a surgeon, but Mitre Square shows he had some useful medical skills or real and great talent, if he was an amateur. The kidney removal and how it was done is not explainable otherwise. As I told Duran Duren, I would agree with both of you, if he would have went in, slashing about until he reached the kidney and took it. Since murder was his intent, being careful how he gets the organ was not necessary, but that is not what happened.
The Ripper went for the kidney in a way Doctors could recognise, retrace and would have done similarly themselves. And that under time pressure, in near darkness on your knees.
Put yourself in the Ripper´s place for a moment. You want that kidney, no matter what. You are not in a nice, shiny medical ward, but in Mitre Square, under time pressure, in near darkness on your knees, high on adrenaline. Could you reproduce a kidney removal like the Ripper did, on which Doctors Brown and Phillips commented that the "the perpetrator of the act must have had considerable knowledge of the position of the organs in the abdominal cavity and the way of removing them. It required a great deal of medical knowledge to have removed the kidney"(Doc Brown, City Police). Remember, in 1888 medical knowledge of any kind was far more rare among the populace than today.

JtR did not butcher out the kidney, that would also have been commented on, he did so in a way medical doctors of the time also did and under very adverse circumstances. It is teleologically sound to posit that Jack had, in whatever form it came, some solid medical knowledge. The (getting more severe over the run of the series) mutilations were a fetish of JtR and also a way for him to cover up his skills and knowledge.

Mitre Square does not rule out a medical amateur, but any suspect with medical knowledge of any kind, like e.g. Klosowski, is far more likely to be the Ripper than a raving lunatic like Kelly.

Some fair points however Klosowski is a poor Ripper suspect to go from what the Ripper did to poisoning is highly unlikely. I still think Bury was the Ripper and if not Bury then James Kelly or someone like either of them.

[Fernglas]

Some fair points however Klosowski is a poor Ripper suspect to go from what the Ripper did to poisoning is highly unlikely. I still think Bury was the Ripper and if not Bury then James Kelly or someone like either of them.

Thanks!
Actually Klosowski is a prime suspect! It is this very common missconception that serial killers are unable to change their M.O., why many dismiss him. A serious mistake. While many killers do not change much, for example Israel Keyes and Peter Kürten had highly variable M.O.s. In Keyes´ case, most of his murders (11+) could only be pinned on him because he confessed to them with perpetrator´s knowledge.
I theorise Klosowski´s change in methods came because after Mary Kelly, a murder-slaughter "magnum opus" he could not surpass again, the thrill was gone and seeing his victims die a slow horrible death by Antimon poisoning tickled the sadism and evil in him anew.
We have remember that the news might skew the picture, but serial killers do not grow on trees! And while a single murder is one thing, killers going on to become serial killers are simply and thankfully very rare. Klosowski is a proven serial killer, only with Deeming among the Ripper suspects he shares this trait. And Deeming is a joke suspect, there are zero connections to the Whitechapel murders beside some rumours.

[John Wheat]

Thanks!
Actually Klosowski is a prime suspect! It is this very common missconception that serial killers are unable to change their M.O., why many dismiss him. A serious mistake. While many killers do not change much, for example Israel Keyes and Peter Kürten had highly variable M.O.s. In Keyes´ case, most of his murders (11+) could only be pinned on him because he confessed to them with perpetrator´s knowledge.
I theorise Klosowski´s change in methods came because after Mary Kelly, a murder-slaughter "magnum opus" he could not surpass again, the thrill was gone and seeing his victims die a slow horrible death by Antimon poisoning tickled the sadism and evil in him anew.
We have remember that the news might skew the picture, but serial killers do not grow on trees! And while a single murder is one thing, killers going on to become serial killers are simply and thankfully very rare. Klosowski is a proven serial killer, only with Deeming among the Ripper suspects he shares this trait. And Deeming is a joke suspect, there are zero connections to the Whitechapel murders beside some rumours.

Kurten did change his M.O. but nothing like to the extent Klosowski would have to if he was the Ripper. Bury is a proven violent murderer. He lived in near by Bow and considering he owned a horse and cart getting to Whitechapel would not be a problem. In my opinion Bury is the best suspect there is by a country mile and may well have been the Ripper.