Who saw Jack ?

[Ben]

He couldn't excersie much control over that, though, Stan. He had to approach his victims at some point, and unless the prostitutes were cruising some incredibly remote alley when they were picked up, the chances of him being seen with his victims are pretty strong.

Best regards,
Ben

[Roy Corduroy]

Hello Brummie,

I sort of asked another question on top or yours. Sorry about that. Who knows, maybe both questions have the same answer.

On re-reading Roy's post, I now wonder if he was esentially asking who Anderson's witness was,...

Yes, Ben I was asking about Anderson's witness, the Swanson marginalia, and Macnaghten's statements. And when you answered there is a Levy theory, well, yes there is.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-ckl.html

Thanks again Ben and everyone,

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

In addition to the above link, Scott Nelson had several additional dissertations on the witness Levy angle, all under the Kosminski heading on Casebook.

Reply To: Kosminski and the Seaside Home, An Answer, By Stewart Evans
By Scott Nelson

An Alternate Kosminski Suspect and Police Witness: Some Perspectives and Points to Ponder
Scott Nelson

Dan posted the link to the Evans dissertation. If we accept Evans as the correct interpetation, then Ben, your first answer to Brummie's original question "Who Saw Jack" - Lawende, also answered my question about the Anderson-Swanson marginalia-Macnaghten witness-Lawende.

So Ben you answered my question before I asked it! You had them both right the first time.

Have a pleasant Sunday,

Roy

[sdreid]

Anderson's probable CYA was likely a big disservice to solving the case. Police would not let any witness pull that stunt.

[brummie]

Very likely, no one saw Jack with a victim. I doubt that he was that stupid.

Surely this means then we can discount Mary Ann Cox's sighting since not only did she see MJK going into her room with a man she actually said "goodnight Mary Jane" and received a reply, so the man not only was seen but must have known he was seen.

[sdreid]

Hi Brummie,

I said I doubted he was that stupid but maybe he was.

[perrymason]

Its not really as easy a question as many think, because its not a given that Jack killed all the women, or didnt kill them and more, so witnesses may well have seen "killers", but whether anyone saw the Whitechapel Murderer....dont know.

I think Schwartz, if an accurate account, saw Liz's killer, and I believe if it was Kate that Lawende saw with a man...he identified her by the clothing...then due to the time left in her life at that time, he must have been her killer.

I think the chances of the first guy being Jack are almost nil, and the chances the second guy was are less than 100%.

Best regards all.

[Ben]

My thoughts exactly, Mike.

[The Grave Maurice]

I'm in the ever-decreasing group that believes that Stride was a victim of JtR. But did Schwartz see JtR? Doubt it. There were still as much as fifteen minutes to go before the fatal attack on Stride when Schwartz saw the incident outside Dutfield's Yard. Plenty of time for Stride to escape the clutches of BS man and encounter her real killer. And Schwartz was probably so shaken by being chased that his testimony can't be given much credence---even ignoring any problems with translation.

But Lawende's evidence is pretty much a dead cert as far as I'm concerned. There was so little time between his sighting of the couple by Church Passage and the discovery of the body by PC Watkins that, if anyone provided an accurate description of JtR, he did---right down to the salt-and-pepper jacket.

[caz]

The 'ever-decreasing' group, GM? You mean the group that may have gone from being a very substantial majority to maybe just a substantial majority?

I would not want to judge the overall mood by the volume of the few voices I regularly hear indulging in unbridled speculation around here. Is there a recent poll that shows what effect, if any, these voices are having on the views of the silent majority?

If anything, some of the arguments against Liz being a ripper victim strike me as being so strained, so illogical and so assumption-filled, that they have the opposite of the desired effect on me, making her murder fit even more comfortably into the series than I thought it did from the start, as I am asked to reconsider all the circumstances.

Love,

Caz
X

[perrymason]

The thing with the Stride murder Maurice, without Schwartz, is that we have a Senior Medical Man onsite and at 1:16...by his watch, he stated that the women had been cut within the last half hour, or maybe as little as 20 minutes before his arrival.

I think since we are not talking about estimating a time of death beyond 30 minutes, a Senior Medical authority should be able to pin down the time fairly precisely. The watch also helps.

That means her killer was not interrupted by Diemshu(i)tz. There was still at least 4 minutes before he arrives.

Best regards.

[brummie]

The fact that the second man with the clay pipe didnt come forward as a witness surely implies that he was working with the man who threw Lizzie to the ground. If this is the case then either we are looking for a pair of killers or Stride was not a ripper victim at all or the men seen by Schwarz had no connection with the ripper who happened to come along after they had gone.

[celee]

Hi Brad,

On re-reading Roy's post, I now wonder if he was esentially asking who Anderson's witness was, in which case Schwartz and Lawende seem likelier candidates than Levy. If there is any semblance of a consensus view as to which witness ID'd Kosminski, I'd hazard a guess that more students of the case would plump for Lawende than Schwartz. Which experts claimed otherwise on the show?

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben,

The documentary can be found on Youtube. I just watched the show again.

Your friend, Brad

[Graham]

I'm in the ever-decreasing group that believes that Stride was a victim of JtR. But did Schwartz see JtR? Doubt it. There were still as much as fifteen minutes to go before the fatal attack on Stride when Schwartz saw the incident outside Dutfield's Yard. Plenty of time for Stride to escape the clutches of BS man and encounter her real killer. And Schwartz was probably so shaken by being chased that his testimony can't be given much credence---even ignoring any problems with translation.

But Lawende's evidence is pretty much a dead cert as far as I'm concerned. There was so little time between his sighting of the couple by Church Passage and the discovery of the body by PC Watkins that, if anyone provided an accurate description of JtR, he did---right down to the salt-and-pepper jacket.

Hi GM,

For years and years I've thought that the only reliable sighting of JtR was by Lawende (and perhaps also by his two friends), and for the same reason as yourself: there just wasn't time for Eddowes to 'find' another client between
Lawende's sighting of her and Watkins' discovery of her body. And it would seem to me that the police at the time thought the same, as Lawende was, as we know, asked at later dates by the police if he could identify at least one other murder suspect as being one and the same as the man he saw in Church Passage.

Cheers,

Graham

[perrymason]

The fact that the second man with the clay pipe didnt come forward as a witness surely implies that he was working with the man who threw Lizzie to the ground. If this is the case then either we are looking for a pair of killers or Stride was not a ripper victim at all or the men seen by Schwarz had no connection with the ripper who happened to come along after they had gone.

Its an interesting question Brummie, because there are a few versions of Schwartz's story and some early ones include him feeling the Pipeman was signalled to see Schwartz off.

What goals though would a pair work towards? Surely not just mutilations...the chances that both men would be inclined to kill, and kill in a similar fashion are slim. Robbery? Maybe. But why the dramatic scenes then? To throw off the notion that they were killing for likely less than the cost of one bed for the night? Not likely.

Two men can make many things more efficient, and also leave two people with knowledge that became very valuable.

Since there are no authenticated attempts to get the building reward monies, it would seem if there were 2, one might have been killed after, or maybe something separated them...and each kept his silence.

I do think some of the attacks and murder victims might have been the result of more than one man, Emma is a fine example, but I dont think Rippered ones make for good duo speculation.

Best regards.