Who saw Jack ?

[GRISTLE]

The 'ever-decreasing' group, GM? You mean the group that may have gone from being a very substantial majority to maybe just a substantial majority?

I would not want to judge the overall mood by the volume of the few voices I regularly hear indulging in unbridled speculation around here. Is there a recent poll that shows what effect, if any, these voices are having on the views of the silent majority?

If anything, some of the arguments against Liz being a ripper victim strike me as being so strained, so illogical and so assumption-filled, that they have the opposite of the desired effect on me, making her murder fit even more comfortably into the series than I thought it did from the start, as I am asked to reconsider all the circumstances.

Love,

Caz
X

If there is a silent majority still viewing Stride as one of the C5, then I'm happy to count myself as among that majority .... I've certainly got the 'silent' part of it covered as I generally find myself spending much more time reading the insights on this forum rather than contributing my own. On to the question posed by this thread I also feel as Graham, Maurice and others that Lawende seems to me the most probable witness.

[brummie]

What goals though would a pair work towards? Surely not just mutilations...the chances that both men would be inclined to kill, and kill in a similar fashion are slim.

I agree it is very unlikely that two maniac killers work together which means IF clay pipe man was an accomplice it is highly doubtful that Stride was a ripper victim. We do know that prostitutes were victims also of what
today we would call muggers certainly Emma Smith was the victim of one such gang. I have also previously noted that Stride only gave small shouts when attacked instead of screaming the building down if she was attacked knowing a maniac killer was at large, perhaps meaning she knew her assailant or at least did not believe he could be the ripper.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Brummie,

Stride could not have suspected her assailant might have been the "Ripper".

The name did not appear until the morning of Monday, October 1st.

Regards,

Simon

[brummie]

She may not have been able to give him that name ,but she must have been aware that there was a vicious killer at work in the eastend at that time. There are many instances of people being arrested or investigated maerely for looking or sounding suspicious so being assaulted by someone must have led her to the idea that this could be the killer.

[The Grave Maurice]

As always, Graham, your observations seem, to me, to be very astute.

[Scott Nelson]

She did know the name "Leather Apron."

[DVV]

Shouting loudly is not so easy, it depends on the circomstances, breathing, whatever...that does not mean she was not afraid.
Schwartz himself was so afraid that he ran cowardly.
However, he was not ashamed to make his statement, and this is quite amazing to me.
DVV (broken-english poster)

[perrymason]

Shouting loudly is not so easy, it depends on the circomstances, breathing, whatever...that does not mean she was not afraid.
Schwartz himself was so afraid that he ran cowardly.
However, he was not ashamed to make his statement, and this is quite amazing to me.
DVV (broken-english poster)

Hi DVV,

If you consider that not only does Liz not scream at the top of her lungs, but also that she remains at that location after the altercation occurred,.... it could be a result of her knowing Broadshouldered Man.

Which brings up the thread question......and I can see an answer in the question itself....if the word "Jack" is used as a colloquialism for " nothing". Like no-one saw jack.

Annies killer was likely seen by Mrs Long at 5:30am, Mr Shabby Genteel. She saw Annies face.

Liz Strides killer may have been seen by Israel Schwartz, Mr Broadshouldered Man.

Catherines killer was very likely seen by Lawende, due to the time left in her life primarily, the red scarfed Sailor Man.

Marys killer may have been seen by Mary Ann Cox, the Blotchy Faced Man.

All of the descriptions portray a Labourer, Dock Worker, or Sailor type. An employed, but not fancily dressed, worker.

I think that fits into my personal profile for him, employed, local man, restricted to certain hours, and/or days when he can kill, and strong. I think that last element would be found in the job categories above, and is crucial to his success. Overpowering without allowing the victim to struggle much, and almost silently, I believe requires some strength.

Best regards all.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I hold very little doubt that Lawende saw the killer - in fact, I suspect that he was the only one who actually saw a glimpse of him, and that's based on the arguments laid out by Graham et al.
The other sightings, I feel, are more questionable - partly because of the validity or credibility of the witness testimonies as such but mainly because of we can't be sure of some of those murders actually were committed by Jack the Ripper, which the murder of Eddowes undoubtedly was.

All the best

[perrymason]

I hold very little doubt that Lawende saw the killer - in fact, I suspect that he was the only one who actually saw a glimpse of him, and that's based on the arguments laid out by Graham et al.
The other sightings, I feel, are more questionable - partly because of the validity or credibility of the witness testimonies as such but mainly because of we can't be sure of some of those murders actually were committed by Jack the Ripper, which the murder of Eddowes undoubtedly was.

All the best

Hi Glenn,

Thats what I was getting at my friend, ...seeing the victim with their killer, or having seen a victim with Jack, are different questions with different answers.

I think Mrs Long may have seen Annies killer, and I agree with you, Lawende most likely saw Kates. And those two I would put under one killer myself.

In the case of Liz, Mary and because we dont know Pollys story really, there are other possible explanations as to who might have killed them that dont require The Ripper.

Best regards Glenn.

[Elias]

I've always felt Lawende and Mrs Long are most likely to have seen him. I think Mrs Long is the most likely of all, but for a debate about the times she gave, when it was very easy to get times wrong in those days, I think it would be pretty much a given now that Long saw the killer. Ah, if only Cadosch had peered over the fence - a dead cert!

[cats meat man]

Hi Elias
What if Lawende had seen the actual Ripper and Mrs Long could have seen his accomplice?This could explain the estimated age difference and the ,'Will you?'-'Yes' exchange that was overheard by Mrs Long.
All the best
Rob

[DVV]

Hi Rob,
Jack working with an accomplice?
Seems a highly unlikely theory to me...which can only be supported if one imagines BS and Pipeman knowing each other... Very unlikely too...
Even if it was the case, Pipeman is described as a rather tall man (5'11), aged 35, with a fresh complexion. Nothing matches with Elizabeth Long's testimony.

Amitiés,
David

[Jeff Leahy]

The only logical witness to the Jack the Ripper murders is Schwartz..

Thats assuming that BS man was JtR committing the murder...

No other witness fits

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Since Begg has already decided that Anderson cannot be exaggerating, lying, confused or engaged in wishful thinking in any way, Lawende couldn't possibly be the witness. He then engages in some truly frightening leaps of logic to come to the conclusion that Macnaghten's "City PC near Mitre Square" witness (the one who saw a man that Kosminksi was supposed to resemble) was actually Schartz, who was not a PC, not connected to the City of London murder in any way and of course nowhere near Mitre Square. (Other authors, such as Stewart Evans in this dissertation, argue that Macnaghten's reference to a "City PC" as a witness was just a mix up with a "City police witness", which would most likely be Lawende).

And just to prove the point that Norder talks complete and utter rubish..we have his...twaddle..

Go back and read the book again carefuly..

Clearly Begg does not say anything of the kind..

Any more than any 'paper experts' ridicule Peter Bower..its all in your mind Norder....

You make these claims but when challenged you sulk off claiming your being harrassed...

If you don't like it, stop telling Porkies

Good night Casebook

Pirate