Who saw Jack ?

[Uncle Jack]

There is no evidence to suggest that any of the witnesses actually saw the Ripper. All of the men seen may have been ordinary clients and the women seen may not have even been the victims. I tend to ignore any of the witness statements.

[Jon Guy]

There is no evidence to suggest that any of the witnesses actually saw the Ripper. All of the men seen may have been ordinary clients and the women seen may not have even been the victims. I tend to ignore any of the witness statements.

In my opinion Mrs Long definately saw Chapman. It was already light when she passed her, and as has been noted from the mortuary photo to the portrait of her and her husband, taken twenty years earlier, she is easily distinguishable.

[DVV]

There is no evidence to suggest that any of the witnesses actually saw the Ripper. All of the men seen may have been ordinary clients and the women seen may not have even been the victims. I tend to ignore any of the witness statements.

Lawende and his friends saw a woman with a man at 1.35am in Church Passage, and at 1.45am, Eddowes' body was found.
I can't see why this should be ignored.
If the woman seen by Lawende was Eddowes, the man has to be her muderer, and not an ordinary client.
Within 10 minutes, how could Eddowes get rid of this man, meet another one, and be so extensively mutilated?

Amitiés,
David

[Uncle Jack]

Lawende and his friends saw a woman with a man at 1.35am in Church Passage, and at 1.45am, Eddowes' body was found.
I can't see why this should be ignored.
If the woman seen by Lawende was Eddowes, the man has to be her muderer, and not an ordinary client.
Within 10 minutes, how could Eddowes get rid of this man, meet another one, and be so extensively mutilated?

Amitiés,
David

Well the most important word in your post DVV is IF the woman seen by Lawende was Eddowes. The woman seen may not have been her. And lets say it was her, she may have spoken to an innocent man then walked to Mitre Square alone. The Ripper may not have even picked up Eddowes. She may have walked into the Square alone and been attacked there by the Ripper. Maybe, for example, she was trying to pick up the man she was talking to and after Lawende walked away, the man told her to buzz off and then Eddowes made her way into Mitre Square and met her killer. I am not suggesting this is correct or that I even believe it myself but the possibility is there. And also in the case of Annie Chapman seen. The woman seen was, more than likely, Chapman. But this was sometime before her murder so the man seen may nothave been the Ripper.

[DVV]

Uncle Jack,
All that you suggest is possible, but more than very unlikely.
Timing makes almost impossible that the man seen with Eddowes was not her murderer.
And when you wrote: "There is no evidence to suggest that any of the witnesses actually saw the ripper", you are clearly confusing "evidence" and "proof".

Amitiés,
David

[Jeff Leahy]

Of course its not out of the realms of possibility that the man seen by Schwartz (ie BS) and the man seen by Lawende, were one of the same?

Pirate

[DVV]

Right, nothing is sure, but they could be the same man.

[Uncle Jack]

Hi David,

Whether evidence or proof, I do not personally think there is either to suggest that the men seen with the victims are the Ripper or even, in some cases, that the women seen were the victims themselves. While Lawende clearly saw a man and women outside the passage into Mitre Square, he didn't see them go into the Square, so the is a chance it wasn't even Eddowes, even though it is, as you say, likely that it was.

The sightings that intrigue me the most is that of Mary Kelly, seen by a number of people, after her apprently time of death. Can everyone be ingnorant that we can pass off these sightings as pure mistaken identity? There are other explanations of course...

...01. That the time of death given was wrong and that she was seen on the murning of the 9th and was murdered afterwards, which would point against MJK being a Ripper victim, as he/she only murdered in the early hours.

...02: The woman seen wasn't MJK but then why would she converse with people as MJK?

...03: The woman seen was MJK and that the victim murdered at Miller's Court was someone else, leading to some sort of connection to the murders with MJK.

...04: The woman seen was the killer, therfore leading us to a "Jill the Ripper" type theory....

But I definately would not rule out the sightings as pure mistake or fabrications, especially in the case of the woman who knew Kelly.

Kind regards,

Adam

[Ben]

Whether evidence or proof, I do not personally think there is either to suggest that the men seen with the victims are the Ripper

Oh, there's certainly evidence, Adam, and strong circumstantial evidence to boot. We just lack final "proof" - a distinction wisely highlighted by David earlier. It's remotely possible that the man observed was someone other than the killer, but it isn't probable.

Best regards,
Ben

[Roy Corduroy]

The Long and Schwartz of it

Long and Schwartz each ID'ed the victim's body in mortuary as the woman they saw with a man.

Roy

[Uncle Jack]

Long and Schwartz each ID'ed the victim's body in mortuary as the woman they saw with a man.

Roy

Good point Roy

[DVV]

Hi Uncle Jack,
Maurice Lewis said he saw Mary between 10 and 11pm...but described her as "five foot three, stout and dark" (P. Begg).
So there are not "sightings" of Mary Kelly...after her death, and only Mrs Maxwell's stestimony is worth discussing... But as you know, MK's body has been identified, and Mrs Maxwell, if not a liar, has certainly mistaken the day.
With all due respect, I don't understand how you can give more importance to Maurice Lewis and Mrs Maxwell than to Lawende.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

Long and Schwartz each ID'ed the victim's body in mortuary as the woman they saw with a man.

Roy

Which translates to witness seeing probable killers with victims, not that they saw "Jack". Lawendes man could have parted in the square with Kate and her killer was in there waiting is also a possibilty.

Liz was seen assaulted by a drunk man, weaving when he walked, and she is dead less than 14 minutes later a few yards away from that site. Its not rocket science, nor is it a case of a spooky madman suddenly appearing and then forgoeing his trademark mutilations.

Did anyone see "Jack"? My guess is that Lawende is the most probable due to the timing, but hardly assured.

Best regards.

[c.d.]

Liz was seen assaulted by a drunk man, weaving when he walked, and she is dead less than 14 minutes later a few yards away from that site.

Hi Michael,

Well at least you didn't state the time as 13 minutes and 50 seconds. I'm still holding out hope for you.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Liz was seen assaulted by a drunk man, weaving when he walked, and she is dead less than 14 minutes later a few yards away from that site.

Hi Michael,

Well at least you didn't state the time as 13 minutes and 50 seconds. I'm still holding out hope for you.

c.d.

Hi cd,

Since you know I already believe she was cut before 12:55, no point in tormenting you. Hope youre steady on two good knees my friend.

Cheers mate.