Who saw Jack ?

[brummie]

Jack the ripper has always been seen by many as a will of the wisp figure coming and going useen in the night yet the vidence files contain many witness accounts of possible sightings.
The Chapman killing gives us Elizabeth Long who saw a man she describes as dark, about 40, and a foreigner (all this although she admits not seeing his face!),a little over 5 feet ina dark coat and deerstalker.
Numerous witnesses at the Stride killing include P.C. Smith,Israel Schwartz (who saw 2 men in the area at the time).James Brown and Mrs Mortimer who apparently saw Leon Goldstein (does anyone know if Goldsteins story was checked out) and Mathew Packer although much doubt has been cast on his account.
Edowes's killing gives us Joseph Lawende and although the coroner at the inquest seemed to regard his identification as significant it actually seems pretty useless.
From Kelly's death we have possible sightings of the killer by Mary Anne Cox,as well as Hutchinsons highly detailed description and the sighting by Mrs Maxwell (again dismissed by some)
So who from this list do we think saw the actual killer, personally i think Elizabeth Longs sighting in Hanbury Street the most likely although we must treat her description with care. Also Hutchinson was believed by Abberline at the time, although his description is almost to good to be true.

[dougie]

Id dare to say many people saw him,the trouble was they didnt recognise him for "what he was".Id venture the guess that hutchinson was the most likely,whether his description was exaggerated or not.But who knows?Only his victims would be "certainties",and maybe not even they if he approached from behind.
regards

[Ben]

Even if we disregard Hutchinson's impossibly detailed description, the police ended up not using his evidence as a tool with which to identify or capture the murderer. Even if people want to argue that the police still believed he saw Kelly that night (in whatever capacity), his Astrakhan character was demonstrably written off as a viable ripper sighting. Unless we know better than they did, I'm inclined to endorse that collective view.

Who was most likely to have seen the killer? Joseph Lawende, for the simple reason that the suspect was seen in the company of a woman identified as the victim ten minutes before the discovery of the body. If Stride was a ripper victim, then the broadshouldered man is probably the ripper. If Ada Wilson was an early ripper victim, then her sighting warrants strong consideratrion too. Liz Long's is another strong possibility given the timing, location etc. Then there's the man or men Lewis saw to consider, also the blotchy-faced man seen by Cox.

But since Eddowes' status as a victim is more cemented that Stride's (for example), it follows that Lawende is the most likely witness to have seen the killer, and there are enough indication that the police believed the same.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hello Brummie,

But since Eddowes' status as a victim is more cemented that Stride's (for example), it follows that Lawende is the most likely witness to have seen the killer, and there are enough indication that the police believed the same.

Who was the "reluctant" witness police referred to? In that not only did he see the killer but recognized him but would not say? Schwartz, Lawende or Levy?

Roy

[Ben]

Hi Roy,

That was Levy, supposedly.

The theory goes that Levy knew the Kosminski family, and recognised Aaron across the street as the man talking to Eddowes. To bolster this theory, its proponents usually draw attention to an article in which a reporter describes Levy as "obstinate" and unwilling to share information; inferring that he knew "something" but was withholding it for some reason. The Levy angle has been levelled at other suspects, including Hyam Hyams.

Hope this helps,

Ben

[celee]

Hi Roy,

That was Levy, supposedly.

The theory goes that Levy knew the Kosminski family, and recognised Aaron across the street as the man talking to Eddowes. To bolster this theory, its proponents usually draw attention to an article in which a reporter describes Levy as "obstinate" and unwilling to share information; inferring that he knew "something" but was withholding it for some reason. The Levy angle has been levelled at other suspects, including Hyam Hyams.

Hope this helps,

Ben

Hi Ben,

I am confused. I watched a how on the discovery channel were all the experts were claiming that it was Shwartz who got a good look at the Ripper and Identified him as Kosminski. However Shwartz did not want to give evidence because he did not want to send a fellow Jew to the hangman.

Your friend, Brad

[Ben]

Hi Brad,

On re-reading Roy's post, I now wonder if he was esentially asking who Anderson's witness was, in which case Schwartz and Lawende seem likelier candidates than Levy. If there is any semblance of a consensus view as to which witness ID'd Kosminski, I'd hazard a guess that more students of the case would plump for Lawende than Schwartz. Which experts claimed otherwise on the show?

All the best,
Ben

[Monty]

Though is by no means ascertained, most feel Lawende was Andersons witness. He had a good look, thought states he wouldnt recognise, the man he saw with a woman who wore similar clothing to those of Eddowes. Also, Lawende, a city witness was used in a Met ID parade of Sadler. Id say he was a valued witness and therefore the one who most likely to have seen Jack.

Monty

[Monty]

I think its Paul Begg who puts forward that Schwartz is Andersons witness, I may be wrong though.

Monty

[Dan Norder]

Paul Begg does state that the witness was Schwartz. A few others have gone with that too, but he's the main proponent of it. Begg's argument goes basically like this:

Anderson and Swanson describe a witness who got a good look at the killer and who unhesitatingly identified a suspect later as being the killer but then refused to testify when he found out that the man was a fellow Jew. Lawende didn't get a good look at the man he saw with Eddowes, and if he actually refused to testify against someone then he wouldn't be used in later attempted identifications, and Lawende was used in the Sadler case (which obviously doesn't fit a Jewish suspect scenario) and also later on. Since Begg has already decided that Anderson cannot be exaggerating, lying, confused or engaged in wishful thinking in any way, Lawende couldn't possibly be the witness. He then engages in some truly frightening leaps of logic to come to the conclusion that Macnaghten's "City PC near Mitre Square" witness (the one who saw a man that Kosminksi was supposed to resemble) was actually Schartz, who was not a PC, not connected to the City of London murder in any way and of course nowhere near Mitre Square. (Other authors, such as Stewart Evans in this dissertation, argue that Macnaghten's reference to a "City PC" as a witness was just a mix up with a "City police witness", which would most likely be Lawende).

[celee]

Hi,

The thing that puzzles me is, Abberline seems to dismiss all acounts. He would later claim that no one had ever gotten a good look at the Ripper.

If the Ripper had already been identified by Shwartz or lewende then why would they bring either one to give Sadler the once over?

Hi Ben,

I am not sure who the experts were. I do not believe Paul Begg was on the show.

your friend, Brad

[brummie]

Abberline was certainly taken in by Hutchinson initially adding to his report on his interview with Hutchinson his opinion that the statement was true, presumably further checking into the background of Hutch or his story made him believe otherwise.
In the Lawende v schwarz debate, in his report of 19th october, Swanson certainly seems to be leaning towards Lawende despite his concerns about only being able to identify the woman by her clothing. We also have to consider why the coroner was anxious that Lawende should not give his description of the man in court at the inquest.

[Ben]

The thing that puzzles me is, Abberline seems to dismiss all acounts.

Not really, Brad.

He referred to witness accounts involving peaked caps (Lawende and Schwartz) as well as sightings which involved a rear-view of a foreign-looking suspect (Long). It's surely no coincidence that these were the very witnesses that appeared on a report written up by Donald Swanson.

Best regards,
Ben

[sdreid]

Very likely, no one saw Jack with a victim. I doubt that he was that stupid.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Another intresting thread.
'Who saw Jack', surely it has to be the last witness ,that was alleged to have seen the last Ripper victim, ie Mjk, with a man[ market porter].
This has nothing to do with any reported sightings after, meaning Maurice Lewis and his time frame of 10am.
It Is simply a witness stating that she saw that victim, alive approx two hours before the body was found., and talking to a man which we have a description of...
Any person seen in the company of a possible assailiant, by a witness, and found dead a relatively short time after, is the main suspect, to that murder.
and it would have to be assertained who that person was, and any alibi he might have had to clear him of such a crime.
We know of no person being interviewed , and cleared, therefore I would suggest [ once again] the man described as dressed as a market porter dressed in plaid , was a huge suspect as the 'Ripper' but 'Alas' the question remains now for 120 years 'Who was he?.
Regards Richard.