Who saw Jack ?

[Ben]

Hi Brad,

Okay, I see your point but even if you are right the witness was unreliable because of his or her uncertainty

Yes, although that uncertainly doesn't reflect at all negatively on the witness, especially if the ID attempt took place two or more years after the initial sighting.

I believe no one got a good look at the Ripper. except maybe Hutchinson.

Depends if there were any mirrors installed in the Victoria Home.

Cheers,
Ben

[Wickerman]

On balance, Hutchinson's sighting of 'Mr Astrakan' comes in a distant third. By Hutch's own admission he left the court a good 45 mins to an hour before the suggested time of the cry of "Oh murder".

Mrs Long's sighting was 15 to 20 minutes before Davis stumbled over the corpse of Annie C.

Lawende's sighting was within 9 minutes of PC Watkins finding the body of Catherine Eddowes.

Why go with a long-shot? , maybe thats what Abberline finally concluded...

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Wasn't sure where else to ask this (which has probably been asked a thousand times before) but:

Aged 25-30, 5'7", long black coat buttoned up, soft felt hawker hat, broad shoulders. Maybe a young clerk, frock coat, no gloves.

Aged 30, 5'5", brown haired, fair complexion, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

Is this the same person?

The only things differing them from one another otherwise is the coat/jacket and hat, but he could've changed before returning back on scene in order to remain inconspicuous. Heights are a bit tricky to determine to be precise; they're obviously just estimations given by the witnesses.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

No two witness could identify a person the same way, even if they saw him at the same time.

Sometimes it is relevant to there own height or how much light they had at that time.

Jack may have changed his clothes to go out killing, probably because he may have thought a witness saw him wearing a particular outfit.

If that were so then he was not insane as some would say but cunning.

BW

[Stephen]

Lunatic

A cunning lunatic

[DVV]

Indeed.
Ask Abberline and Badham.

[Shelley]

Jack the ripper has always been seen by many as a will of the wisp figure coming and going useen in the night yet the vidence files contain many witness accounts of possible sightings.
The Chapman killing gives us Elizabeth Long who saw a man she describes as dark, about 40, and a foreigner (all this although she admits not seeing his face!),a little over 5 feet ina dark coat and deerstalker.
Numerous witnesses at the Stride killing include P.C. Smith,Israel Schwartz (who saw 2 men in the area at the time).James Brown and Mrs Mortimer who apparently saw Leon Goldstein (does anyone know if Goldsteins story was checked out) and Mathew Packer although much doubt has been cast on his account.
Edowes's killing gives us Joseph Lawende and although the coroner at the inquest seemed to regard his identification as significant it actually seems pretty useless.
From Kelly's death we have possible sightings of the killer by Mary Anne Cox,as well as Hutchinsons highly detailed description and the sighting by Mrs Maxwell (again dismissed by some)
So who from this list do we think saw the actual killer, personally i think Elizabeth Longs sighting in Hanbury Street the most likely although we must treat her description with care. Also Hutchinson was believed by Abberline at the time, although his description is almost to good to be true.

I have seen also the different witness accounts of who the Ripper might have been, they do vary except for some similarities of only some or a couple of witnesses including that of the Red handkerchief, a couple stating approx 5ft in height etc and also the moustace which one account said it was brown or carrotty, short or bushy etc but even with the similarities they all differ in the description of the actual person on a whole. The Doctors who stated that the Ripper had medical knowledge, plus the one that changed his mind from saying he didn't have medical knowledge to that he did have medical knowledge, something about a membrane covering the organ and that someone with medical knowledge would only have managed to know that, not your ordinary slap dash mutilator, so with that established JTR must have known about the medical side and more likely a Doctor, so why would a blotchy faced salt & pepper cap sailor looking fellow be the ultimate in identification as JTR the medically knowledgable guy? Most genteel men were not stopped by police, the police would even address them as Sir, i would personally go with more of the guy who was aged around 40 yrs with the deerstalker hat than the one that Lawende, Levy & co came up with, maybe he was one of thier local Doctor's and a sailor type description was a generalisation that they came up with, as many a prostitute went with a sailor or army guy and would certainly put them off finding a Doctor.
Those last words were just a thought on it.

[Ben]

Hi Shelley,

The actual preponderance of medical evidence pointed away from a medically-skilled ripper, and only one doctor specifically implicated someone from the medical profession (the same one who controversially ruled out Eddowes as a ripper victim). The others suggested either someone accustomed to cutting up animals or, even more frequently, someone with no skill whatsoever beyond that which they perfected "on the job" of cutting up prostitutes. In other words, the preponderance of evidence is very compatible indeed with someone shabbily-dressed or with a sailor-like appearance.

It was Lawende who gave the latter description, which was clearly taken seriously by police, certainly more so than some of the "well-dressed" alleged sightings.

Incidentally, I'm not at all sure that "most genteel men were not stopped by police". In fact, during the early stages of the Whitechapel murders (and certainly in the wake of coroner Baxter's dodgy conclusions being made public), the police would have been interested in genteel folk.

Best regards,
Ben

[Shelley]

Ben,
This has not been my understanding from reports actually seen. I understood that it was the same doctor that changed his mind saying that the killer had no medical knowledge to that of he did possess some medical knowledge, because of a membrane which covered the organ.

[Ben]

Hi Shelley,

No, no doctor changed his mind.

Dr. Brown believed that Eddowes' killer may have been accustomed to cutting up animals (thus a butcher or slaughterer), but three other doctors who viewed the corpse - Saunders, Sequeira, and Phillips - didn't believe that the murderer even posessed that degree of anatomical knowledge.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Shelley

As Ben says, this has been looked at for a long time and most expert opinion is agreed that Jack required no medical knowledge to carry out his acts. They were simply acts of ferocious butchery.

As to your witness if you refer to Anderson's witness, it almost certainly wasn't Lawende..

Which probably means it was Schwartz.

However as out-side chances you have Levy, pipeman and Hutchinson.

Pirate

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley,

No, no doctor changed his mind.

Dr. Brown believed that Eddowes' killer may have been accustomed to cutting up animals (thus a butcher or slaughterer), but three other doctors who viewed the corpse - Saunders, Sequeira, and Phillips - didn't believe that the murderer even posessed that degree of anatomical knowledge.

Oh, so why do some believe that Roslyn ' O ' Donston was the ripper when he had medical knowledge as a Doctor and been in the army, and that of Tumbelty An American Doctor if all as you say, about Doctor's reports involvement in the Whitechapel Murders is an absolute account of ' Not Having Medical Knowledge ' then, How do you account for that?
Not to mention my distinct recollection of a Doctor's report stating that a membrane covering the womb is often overlooked, so changed his mind about the killer not having any medical knowledge & that Doctor was the only one to have previously said ' Having no medical knowledge ' and the only one.
I think we have to disagree.

[Ben]

Oh, so why do some believe that Roslyn ' O ' Donston was the ripper when he had medical knowledge as a Doctor and been in the army, and that of Tumbelty An American Doctor if all as you say, about Doctor's reports involvement in the Whitechapel Murders is an absolute account of ' Not Having Medical Knowledge ' then, How do you account for that?

I don't believe the Stephenson and Tumblety theories are preferred primarily on the basis of "medical knowledge".

Not to mention my distinct recollection of a Doctor's report stating that a membrane covering the womb is often overlooked, so changed his mind about the killer not having any medical knowledge & that Doctor was the only one to have previously said ' Having no medical knowledge ' and the only one.

I'm afraid you've distinctly recollected wrong. No doctor changed his mind, and the one who mentioned the detail of the membrane covering the kidney (not the womb) was in the minority of medical opinion when it came to the degree of medical knowledge believed to be possessed by the killer.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Not to disengage from your current conversation, but going back to the 'sailor vs. gentile' look of the Ripper, and assuming the man Lawende saw was Jack, would something like this be what he was wearing? Obviously not the exact design, as I doubt Victorians in Whitechapel were trendy and modern, but the colour et cetera. I think the 'sailor-like' appearance was mostly down to the reddish neckerchief, but would a jacket like Lawende's man be an expensive/'stylish' thing to have back in those days? I think I recall him still being rather shabby, but it'd be interesting to find out if perhaps Jack did have a bit of money, maybe enough to afford his own room where he could've stored his organs and implements in privacy. The dates of the murders seem to indicate towards that being the case, as the likeliest explanation being is that Jack worked weekly.

[Ben]

Hi M&P,

The dates of the murders seem to indicate towards that being the case, as the likeliest explanation being is that Jack worked weekly.

Costermongers and dock labourers also worked weekly, so I wouldn't take the dates of the murders as an indication that the killer had any more money than the average doss house-dwelling Joe. We don't known that he had any intention to store the organs for prolonged periods of time. As for the jacket, no, I'd say the garment in question was the opposite of expensive and stylish and was undoubtedly a contributory factor in Lawende's perception of him as "rather rough and shabby".