Time poll

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

Just decide which category your poll belongs in (ie victims / suspects / pub talk).

Select "New Topic"

Click the wee graph icon at the top of the page and away you go!

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Thanks for the heads up Ms D .

[FrankO]

I think it is well under 2 minutes, but this scenario I mentioned would tend to draw it out a bit, if it actually happened that way.

I'm with you, brother of Holmes. Of course, lots of things could have happened that would have made the whole thing between arriving and running from the yard longer, but when we consider the dimensions of the place, I think it could have taken well under 2 minutes.

The side door was 18 feet or 5.45 m from the gates; the cart was just beyond Stride when Diemshutz jumped off; Stride's head was some 2 yards from the side door. Even if Diemshutz lost some time trying to get the pony to go straight, if he slowed down or even stopped for a moment, it wouldn't have taken more than 15 seconds for the pony to arrive 'just outside the door' and for Diemshutz to jump off.

[Lewis C]

On a YouTube video I watched, the Ripper guide said the papers recounted Louis Diemschutz figured it was his wife, passed out drunk, in the yard. Then, when he went into the club to ask for a hand in bringing her in, and saw his wife hale and hearty, he was astonished, subsequently running back out and discovering the body of Liz Stride! No book on the subject I have read mentions this, and it is amazing to me how stories get grander and grander with the telling. I only mention this because I will be there in a couple of months and attempt to time it myself to best of my ability. I think it is well under 2 minutes, but this scenario I mentioned would tend to draw it out a bit, if it actually happened that way.

Hi HIB,

That's a new one to me. I would want to see a source before I accepted that Diemschutz went back out before telling anyone.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

Hi HIB,

That's a new one to me. I would want to see a source before I accepted that Diemschutz went back out before telling anyone.

Specifically, it was a video taken by Free Tours of London where the guide implied that Diemschutz's wife was a drunkard and this was a common occurrence. I chalk this statement up to local lore more than anything. She also quite dramatically said that Louis struck a match to see what had disturbed the horse. She then stated, "had Louis Diemschutz straightened up and extended his match, he would have been staring straight into the face of Jack The Ripper!" Cue chilling music! LOL I think it much more likely that Jack scarpered off at the earliest possible moment and was well out of reach by the time the hue and cry went up over Stride. A bit melodramatic, to say the least. But she did well with the rest of the tour and stuck to the basic facts.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I'd say anything from 2-5 minutes really, but not long in the grand scheme of things. Allow for a bit of uncertainty, indecision and such so a couple of minutes at tops.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Cheers Al.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Herlock,

You might recall that we had this discussion some years ago. At the time I thought about 5 minutes, but I did an actual physical re-enactment and was surprised when the final stopwatch reading was one minute and fifty seconds. I didn't allow any time for discussion on what should be done, or why it should be done.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Just a point of clarification. I recall your 1m 50s recreation, which I still applaud you for as I think that is a very useful contribution given how little experience 99% of us would have with horses and carriages, etc. Anyway, I just want to clarify what "actions" you recreated? I've been working under the assumption that the 1m 50s starts at the arrival of the carriage, and stops at the point Diemschutz heads into the club, so it doesn't include things like him asking around for his wife, grabbing a candle, alerting people inside, then going back out to the carriage. (I've suggested adding as little as 10seconds to your recreation time for those - just in case Diemschutz was a bit quicker than the 1m 50s, or as much as 1m 10s, as I can't see those actions taking all that long really).

But, just in case I'm wrong, did your recreation represent the time from "stopping the carriage until his return to examine the body", or just from "stopping the carriage until starting to head inside"? I employ your information, but want to ensure I'm employing it correctly!

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Apologies in advance for another Berner Street-related thread but I’d like the opinions of others.

The question is - if we started a stopwatch as Louis Diemschitz halted his cart in Dutfield’s Yard and then stopped at as soon as he exited the gates to look for a Constable, watch would the stopwatch say. Just to remind everyone what Louis said at the inquest:

“All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object. I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could only get sufficient light to see that there was some figure there. I could tell from the dress that it was the figure of a woman.
[Coroner] You did not disturb it? - No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. There were several members in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard, though I could not say whether she was drunk or dead. I then got a candle and went into the yard, where I could see blood before I reached the body.
[Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police.“

So to sum up - he poked the body with his whip, he jumped down and tried to light a match but because it was so windy he could only get a brief light that told him that it was a woman, he went into the club and found his wife in the front ground floor room, he told those in that room (including his wife) that there was a body, he grabbed a candle and went back out, he saw the blood even before he got to the body and ran straight for a Constable.

So how long?

I have some issues with the recreation of Louis's activities once his horse shied...thats not where we should be overly concerned. At what time did that actually happen should be.

The time taken discovering the body and heading inside to see Mrs D isnt a big issue,....but there is time taken to gather the men that were all upstairs down to the passageway. There is the determining who goes for help. There are 2 parties that go for help but neither finds anyone after a few minutes searching for police. One party returns to the club, Spooner joins them. Its 5 minutes more before Eagle and Lamb arrive.

Louis says when he arrived he calmed the horse, locked the cart wheels, climbed down to see what caused the horse to shie, saw the body, bent to see better, and tried to light a match to see the face, presumably to see if she was breathing or passed out. He sees the blood, fears for his wife so he heads into the kitchen. He tells her what he saw, and someone yells upstairs to the remaining attendees that Louis wants them down into the passageway to see this body he found. They come downstairs, and Eagle and Louis examine the situation with several other members now in tow. Louis or some member sends Issac K out to get help, then Louis leaves himself with a member named Issac[s]. Eagle is the last one to leave. The first 2 parties search without any luck for a few minutes. One goes on to Commercial..Issac K...where he meets Eagle who has caught Lambs attention, and the other 2 men return to the club with Spooner now in tow. Spooner is there about 5 minutes before Eagle and Lamb and Issac K return.

If Louis arrived at just after 1am, what is a reasonable amount of time it would take to have Eagle and Lamb be at those gates together?

THAT is where there are time concerns. If all this begins at just after 1...then accounting for time taken immediately on site and in the search, how much time elapses IN TOTAL between when Louis arrives and Lamb and Eagle arrive together?

Something to bear in mind, Fanny says that if anyone had come from that yard before 1am she would have seen them. And she says shortly after 1 she hears the hullabaloo from the club, which she thinks might be fighting, as she has seen and heard this before from that club late on Saturday nights.

So Louis arrived after 1am. Now add the time taken to do all that is stated by Louis, Morris and Issac K. Maybe what.....between 5-10 minutes before Eagle and Lamb are arriving at the gates together? Conservatively. So at what time would Eagle and Lamb be returning there together? 1:10? 1:15? Somewhere between 1:10 and 1:15?

Now look at the times given by Lamb. And Johnson. And Blackwell. And Philips. Can any of those times be correct if Louis arrives after 1am? Simply..no.

So do you want to use a story that negates all the times given by authorities, or use the authority times to negate claims that contradict other times given by those authorities. Like from an anarchist who has a murdered woman on his virtual doorstep during a murder spree by someone unknown that was presumed to be Jewish and an Immigrant. Just like he was, and virtually all the attendees were as well.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have some issues with the recreation of Louis's activities once his horse shied...thats not where we should be overly concerned. At what time did that actually happen should be.

The time taken discovering the body and heading inside to see Mrs D isnt a big issue,....but there is time taken to gather the men that were all upstairs down to the passageway. There is the determining who goes for help. There are 2 parties that go for help but neither finds anyone after a few minutes searching for police. One party returns to the club, Spooner joins them. Its 5 minutes more before Eagle and Lamb arrive.

Louis says when he arrived he calmed the horse, locked the cart wheels, climbed down to see what caused the horse to shie, saw the body, bent to see better, and tried to light a match to see the face, presumably to see if she was breathing or passed out. He sees the blood, fears for his wife so he heads into the kitchen. He tells her what he saw, and someone yells upstairs to the remaining attendees that Louis wants them down into the passageway to see this body he found. They come downstairs, and Eagle and Louis examine the situation with several other members now in tow. Louis or some member sends Issac K out to get help, then Louis leaves himself with a member named Issac[s]. Eagle is the last one to leave. The first 2 parties search without any luck for a few minutes. One goes on to Commercial..Issac K...where he meets Eagle who has caught Lambs attention, and the other 2 men return to the club with Spooner now in tow. Spooner is there about 5 minutes before Eagle and Lamb and Issac K return.

If Louis arrived at just after 1am, what is a reasonable amount of time it would take to have Eagle and Lamb be at those gates together?

THAT is where there are time concerns. If all this begins at just after 1...then accounting for time taken immediately on site and in the search, how much time elapses IN TOTAL between when Louis arrives and Lamb and Eagle arrive together?

Something to bear in mind, Fanny says that if anyone had come from that yard before 1am she would have seen them. And she says shortly after 1 she hears the hullabaloo from the club, which she thinks might be fighting, as she has seen and heard this before from that club late on Saturday nights.

So Louis arrived after 1am. Now add the time taken to do all that is stated by Louis, Morris and Issac K. Maybe what.....between 5-10 minutes before Eagle and Lamb are arriving at the gates together? Conservatively. So at what time would Eagle and Lamb be returning there together? 1:10? 1:15? Somewhere between 1:10 and 1:15?

Now look at the times given by Lamb. And Johnson. And Blackwell. And Philips. Can any of those times be correct if Louis arrives after 1am? Simply..no.

So do you want to use a story that negates all the times given by authorities, or use the authority times to negate claims that contradict other times given by those authorities. Like from an anarchist who has a murdered woman on his virtual doorstep during a murder spree by someone unknown that was presumed to be Jewish and an Immigrant. Just like he was, and virtually all the attendees were as well.

We have no need to discuss sundry issues here because we were talking about one specific issue on the other thread which resulted in the poll. All that we were talking about was the time between Louis arriving and him leaving for a Constable which you were naturally attempting to stretch out as if these people were on the moon.

Your version above of what Louis did fails at even the merest scrutiny. You say (with my comments added):

. Louis says when he arrived he calmed the horse, (he made no mention of any time spent calming the horse - so you invented it)locked the cart wheels, (Louis made no mention of locking the cart wheels - so you invented it) climbed down to see what caused the horse to shie, saw the body, bent to see better, ( You’ve separated this out to make it appear a more time consuming effort than it was. He never mentions bending to see better - so you invented it) and tried to light a match to see the face, presumably to see if she was breathing or passed out. He sees the blood, ( he didn’t see the blood until he came back out with the candle - so you invented this) fears for his wife so he heads into the kitchen. He tells her what he saw, and someone yells upstairs to the remaining attendees that Louis wants them down into the passageway to see this body he found (no one ever mentioned this happening. All that we know is that at some point Gilleman went upstairs and told Eagle and presumably the rest of the members up there - so you invented it) . They come downstairs, and Eagle and Louis examine the situation with several other members now in tow. (Nowhere does it say that Louis and Eagle examined the body at the same time. Eagle might not have been told by Gilleman yet and besides, Louis said that he saw the blood before he’d even reached the body and he went immediately for a Constable - so your version is an invention). Louis or some member sends Issac K out to get help, then Louis leaves himself with a member named Isaacs ( ignoring of course: North Eastern Daily Gazette, October 1st: A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemschitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. - so more invention.)

How did you manage, in such a short passage, to fit in so much that bears no actual resemblance to what the witness said happened? It’s a rare achievement.

Everything that you claim has been categorically refuted. The game is up.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Just a point of clarification. I recall your 1m 50s recreation, which I still applaud you for as I think that is a very useful contribution given how little experience 99% of us would have with horses and carriages, etc. Anyway, I just want to clarify what "actions" you recreated? I've been working under the assumption that the 1m 50s starts at the arrival of the carriage, and stops at the point Diemschutz heads into the club, so it doesn't include things like him asking around for his wife, grabbing a candle, alerting people inside, then going back out to the carriage. (I've suggested adding as little as 10seconds to your recreation time for those - just in case Diemschutz was a bit quicker than the 1m 50s, or as much as 1m 10s, as I can't see those actions taking all that long really).

But, just in case I'm wrong, did your recreation represent the time from "stopping the carriage until his return to examine the body", or just from "stopping the carriage until starting to head inside"? I employ your information, but want to ensure I'm employing it correctly!

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I actually simulated the cart with a chair on a box rather than an actual horse and carriage. My re-enactment started from the halt of the cart and included the prodding with the whip, getting down from the cart, the initial lighting of the match and recognition of the object as a body, the time spent going inside to get a candle and announce the discovery to those in that room, and the time to go back outside with Koz, the lighting of the match by Koz and a brief examination of the body. I didn't include any time for what-to-do discussion after that point, or for an initial calming of the horse.
Naturally the exercise contained considerable speculation and can only be considered an approximation, but the surprise was that it took far less time than my anticipated 5 minutes.

Best regards,
George

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I actually simulated the cart with a chair on a box rather than an actual horse and carriage. My re-enactment started from the halt of the cart and included the prodding with the whip, getting down from the cart, the initial lighting of the match and recognition of the object as a body, the time spent going inside to get a candle and announce the discovery to those in that room, and the time to go back outside with Koz, the lighting of the match by Koz and a brief examination of the body. I didn't include any time for what-to-do discussion after that point, or for an initial calming of the horse.
Naturally the exercise contained considerable speculation and can only be considered an approximation, but the surprise was that it took far less time than my anticipated 5 minutes.

Best regards,
George

Hi George,

Thanks so much for that! I didn't realize you recreated the entire thing and thought it was just the section of his actions before going inside. In some recent time-line recreations I added an additional 70seconds to your estimate, but it appears that is not necessary as you recreated all of it. That's fantastic, as I much prefer working with actual data than having to make a range of estimates. I recognize that it is just an approximation, but it is one based upon actually trying to recreate the situation, and that always trumps a mere guess in my books. While it may seem trivial to some, I do think it is contributions like yours that provide important information for us all to work with and take into account.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

We have no need to discuss sundry issues here because we were talking about one specific issue on the other thread which resulted in the poll. All that we were talking about was the time between Louis arriving and him leaving for a Constable which you were naturally attempting to stretch out as if these people were on the moon.

Your version above of what Louis did fails at even the merest scrutiny. You say (with my comments added):



How did you manage, in such a short passage, to fit in so much that bears no actual resemblance to what the witness said happened? It’s a rare achievement.

Everything that you claim has been categorically refuted. The game is up.

Clearly you cannot envision that each noted activity has consequential activity that needs to also be associated with it. For example, you ask where is my source for Louis calming his horse and locking the cart wheels? You really dont think it out, do you? What I suggested is exactly what any person would do under those particular circumstances. The horse shied, he would calm it so he wouldnt get accidentally trod on, and the brakes would be set so the cart would be fixed in place while he gets a better look at what caused the horse to be startled.

He said what he did, but he didnt say all he did because...well, who does that? Arent basic human functions implied in any circumstance?

Youd like the story to be Louis at 1, Lamb at 1:01 and all will be right with your world. You dont even consider the basic human actions that accompany activities, and the time that can be consumed by them.

As soon as Louis arrives, activity begins. Some predictable, like the calming of the horse and the brakes...jeez....and some he tells us about, like going inside, finding his wife, filling her in on what he found outside, calling upstairs for help, the stumbling down the stairs of a group of meeting stragglers to see whats going on, standing around the body for a minute or two to sort out what to do.....(Spooner stated men were just standing about, and Lamb said lots of men were there when he arrived), then Issac K goes, Louis and Issac[s] go, and finally Eagle goes. None of those men immediately find help.

All that takes time, not anything outrageous, just 5-10 minutes. If Louis actually arrived at least 5-10 minutes earlier than he said he did that would explain how Eagle could be there to find Lamb before, or at, 1am. If Louis arrived at 1, then Eagle wouldnt have found Lamb until 5-10 minutes later. And that doesnt work with any legitimate witnesses timing. There is also the matter of the street being seen by Fanny from just before Goldsteins pass at 12:56 until 1am when she goes inside. And she didnt see any cart or horse arriving.

So what is the most logical and reasonable solution here? Louis actually arrived before Fanny came back out to her door to see Goldstein, and while she was indoors. And what do you know..........there are known and identifiable witnesses of that last half hours activities that actually said that they saw Louis, and the body, around 12:40. 3 actually.

Know the Trees instead of just the Forests. The Details vs The Broad strokes, if that wasnt clear.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Clearly you cannot envision that each noted activity has consequential activity that needs to also be associated with it. For example, you ask where is my source for Louis calming his horse and locking the cart wheels? You really dont think it out, do you? What I suggested is exactly what any person would do under those particular circumstances. The horse shied, he would calm it so he wouldnt get accidentally trod on, and the brakes would be set so the cart would be fixed in place while he gets a better look at what caused the horse to be startled.

He said what he did, but he didnt say all he did because...well, who does that? Arent basic human functions implied in any circumstance?

Youd like the story to be Louis at 1, Lamb at 1:01 and all will be right with your world. You dont even consider the basic human actions that accompany activities, and the time that can be consumed by them.

As soon as Louis arrives, activity begins. Some predictable, like the calming of the horse and the brakes...jeez....and some he tells us about, like going inside, finding his wife, filling her in on what he found outside, calling upstairs for help, the stumbling down the stairs of a group of meeting stragglers to see whats going on, standing around the body for a minute or two to sort out what to do.....(Spooner stated men were just standing about, and Lamb said lots of men were there when he arrived), then Issac K goes, Louis and Issac[s] go, and finally Eagle goes. None of those men immediately find help.

All that takes time, not anything outrageous, just 5-10 minutes. If Louis actually arrived at least 5-10 minutes earlier than he said he did that would explain how Eagle could be there to find Lamb before, or at, 1am.

In ALL versions but one Lamb said about 1.00. About 1.00 isn’t a time Michael, it’s an approximation of a time. So if you refrained from manipulating the evidence then you would know that around 1.05 IS about 1.00. So Lamb can’t be used to question Diemschutz.

If Louis arrived at 1, then Eagle wouldnt have found Lamb until 5-10 minutes later. And that doesnt work with any legitimate witnesses timing. There is also the matter of the street being seen by Fanny from just before Goldsteins pass at 12:56 until 1am when she goes inside. And she didnt see any cart or horse arriving.

Please show me the source that tells us that Goldstein passed at 12.56 (another question I’ve asked you before but with no response)

So what is the most logical and reasonable solution here? Louis actually arrived before Fanny came back out to her door to see Goldstein, and while she was indoors. And what do you know..........there are known and identifiable witnesses of that last half hours activities that actually said that they saw Louis, and the body, around 12:40. 3 actually.

Back to three discredited witness. That you have to hang onto those three says it all Michael. One of them even contradicts himself in the same statement. Be serious.

Know the Trees instead of just the Forests. The Details vs The Broad strokes, if that wasnt clear.

10 out of 14 agree with my 2 mins + or - 30 seconds and one of those going for the next group still goes for under 5 minutes so yet again, as in every topic, you are in the tiniest minority but you always assume that you’re right and everyone else is wrong. You’re stretching out of the time isn’t as a result of calm judgment, it’s a result of an agenda. You need this time to be longer so that you can make a point.

Using Diemschitz own words he came into the yard with the candle and saw the blood before he reached the body and went immediately for a Constable. It wouldn’t take a planning and strategy meeting to decide on a course of action. Fetching a police officer or a doctor was the only course of action available but of course that doesn’t fit in with your plot theory does it? You need these men standing around discussing in depth what do? You need them to be bizarrely thinking that the presence of this body meant that the future of the club was in jeopardy. You need them, in a very short space of time, to have come up with a plan involving some poor sap being willing to be a false witness placing themselves at the scene of a throat cutting. Everyone but you knows that this didn’t happen.

Over on the other thread Jeff is going through versions of events scientifically. Using measurements and valid times and every version show that there are no issues. But there’s no comment from you because you know that these can’t be challenged. It’s why you don’t have the courage of your convictions to produce a timeline despite requests from myself and Jeff.

[Michael W Richards]

Using Diemschitz own words he came into the yard with the candle and saw the blood before he reached the body and went immediately for a Constable. It wouldn’t take a planning and strategy meeting to decide on a course of action. Fetching a police officer or a doctor was the only course of action available but of course that doesn’t fit in with your plot theory does it? You need these men standing around discussing in depth what do? You need them to be bizarrely thinking that the presence of this body meant that the future of the club was in jeopardy. You need them, in a very short space of time, to have come up with a plan involving some poor sap being willing to be a false witness placing themselves at the scene of a throat cutting. Everyone but you knows that this didn’t happen.

Over on the other thread Jeff is going through versions of events scientifically. Using measurements and valid times and every version show that there are no issues. But there’s no comment from you because you know that these can’t be challenged. It’s why you don’t have the courage of your convictions to produce a timeline despite requests from myself and Jeff.

Diemshitz said a lot of things......for example he said it too "20 minutes" from the time a constable arrived until a doctor arrived, well, it actually took 10 minutes. The point that you dont address each time you are reminded of the facts is that this isnt a theory of mine, its not some concoction of subjectively adjusted witness timings that you embrace so thoroughly, its not a hypothetical scenario...its just using direct quotes from witnesses and being able to reconstruct a timeline from them. With using Louis as the "trustworthy" witness, all subsequent times given by other witnesses are incorrect by at least 10 minutes. But without an arrival at "precisely" 1am, those subsequent witness times work perfectly fine. That arrival time, as youve been told ad infinitum, is already provably incorrect. yet you argue for it. Takes all kinds.

And those subsequent witnesses happen to be a constable, a doctors assistant, and 2 physicians, all of who needed to track and record the times and events as part of their jobs. By far the accounts that are the most trustworthy of any witness accounts of that crime scene.

Please stop fabricating what people actually say, or characterize it more honestly. Your pontificating about how many people side with you and how I am somehow creating evidence rather than merely reciting it does nothing to enhance your own reputation, if thats what you think you do. Because, unlike you, most people are able to read, to honestly acquiesce to more factual and reasonable arguments provided by others, and to use the facts in the arguments given against them to counter objections. You mishandle truth Herlock. Its why your opinion of yourself is greater than the content of your rebuttal.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi George,

Thanks so much for that! I didn't realize you recreated the entire thing and thought it was just the section of his actions before going inside. In some recent time-line recreations I added an additional 70seconds to your estimate, but it appears that is not necessary as you recreated all of it. That's fantastic, as I much prefer working with actual data than having to make a range of estimates. I recognize that it is just an approximation, but it is one based upon actually trying to recreate the situation, and that always trumps a mere guess in my books. While it may seem trivial to some, I do think it is contributions like yours that provide important information for us all to work with and take into account.

- Jeff

And how long did the search for help take? Maybe 5 minutes? None of the men found help immediately. Add those numbers to a stated arrival time of "precisely" 1am. Now, what time would Eagle have to have left the yard to be able to meet up with Lamb at around 1am? I cant believe I have to point out over and over that the initial discovery time must be 5-10 minutes before the time Lamb shows up with Eagle.