Time poll

[Herlock Sholmes]

Apologies in advance for another Berner Street-related thread but I’d like the opinions of others.

The question is - if we started a stopwatch as Louis Diemschitz halted his cart in Dutfield’s Yard and then stopped at as soon as he exited the gates to look for a Constable, watch would the stopwatch say. Just to remind everyone what Louis said at the inquest:

“All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object. I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could only get sufficient light to see that there was some figure there. I could tell from the dress that it was the figure of a woman.
[Coroner] You did not disturb it? - No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. There were several members in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard, though I could not say whether she was drunk or dead. I then got a candle and went into the yard, where I could see blood before I reached the body.
[Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police.“

So to sum up - he poked the body with his whip, he jumped down and tried to light a match but because it was so windy he could only get a brief light that told him that it was a woman, he went into the club and found his wife in the front ground floor room, he told those in that room (including his wife) that there was a body, he grabbed a candle and went back out, he saw the blood even before he got to the body and ran straight for a Constable.

So how long?

[Ms Diddles]

I would have guessed 2 to 4 mins were that an option.

Perhaps a smidgen longer than 2.5 mins, but not much more.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I would have guessed 2 to 4 mins were that an option.

Perhaps a smidgen longer than 2.5 mins, but not much more.

I go for 2 minutes but I think it could easily have been less. Poking the corpse, jumping down and lighting a match unsuccessfully and going inside can only have taken 30 seconds tops. The room that his wife was in was the front ground floor so to walk inside and tell them ‘there’s a body in the yard’ pick up a candle and walk outside is another 30 seconds tops. Then he saw the blood before he’d even reached the body and immediately left. Twenty seconds tops.

I just can’t see it being stretched longer Ms D. Plus, when these kind of things happened people tend to rush around.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Herlock,

I take your point, but my feeling is that events may have taken a tiny bit longer.

We know it was dark as Louis couldn't make out what the object was.

He didn't immediately realise what he was looking at, so there would have been no great urgency when he was poking the object with his whip.

It was windy obviously since his match went out.

He may have tried a couple of times to light it.

He also may have dismounted from the cart and moved more slowly than he would in the light of day.

We know he entered the club to ask where his wife was then found her in the front room.

We don't know exactly how long this conversation and discovery took.

There were several people in the front room to whom he explained what he'd found.

They may have asked questions which would have delayed him slightly.

We don't know how long it took him to locate and light a candle

I agree we're looking at the lower end of the scale here, but as someone who fannies around a lot, I go for a slightly longer period!

The difference between your take and mine is probably around a minute.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I take your point, but my feeling is that events may have taken a tiny bit longer.

We know it was dark as Louis couldn't make out what the object was.

He didn't immediately realise what he was looking at, so there would have been no great urgency when he was poking the object with his whip.

It was windy obviously since his match went out.

He may have tried a couple of times to light it.

He also may have dismounted from the cart and moved more slowly than he would in the light of day.

We know he entered the club to ask where his wife was then found her in the front room.

We don't know exactly how long this conversation and discovery took.

There were several people in the front room to whom he explained what he'd found.

They may have asked questions which would have delayed him slightly.

We don't know how long it took him to locate and light a candle

I agree we're looking at the lower end of the scale here, but as someone who fannies around a lot, I go for a slightly longer period!

The difference between your take and mine is probably around a minute.

No problem with that Ms D

[Herlock Sholmes]

Quick thought experiment using a stopwatch… accepting that we can’t be totally accurate. This is without speeding people up or slowing them down and it’s of course accepting that we can’t be certain of the club layout except that the events took place on the ground floor. I did this by imagining events whilst not looking at the stop watch.

Louis enters the yard and the horse shies and stops - stopwatch starts.

Louis picks up his whip, reaches down and prods at the body two or three times. He gets down from the cart, gets a match from his pocket and strikes it. It immediately goes out. He strikes another, that one goes out. He strikes a third which stays lit long enough for him to see that it’s a woman lying there.

Stop the watch - 29 seconds.

He goes inside the club looking for his wife to check that she isn’t lying in the yard, perhaps he goes into the kitchen first and is told that she’s in the front room. The front room can’t be far from the kitchen as this isn’t a huge building. Both rooms were probably off the same corridor. So I’ll allow that he goes to one room before reaching the front room.

Stop the watch - 41 seconds.

He looks into the room and sees that his wife is there. He then calls out to those in the room that there’s a woman lying in the yard. He needs a candle. I’d suggest that there would be candles on the tables but let’s suggest that his wife gets him one, sat from the kitchen. Every Victorian building would have candles so there would be no issue with finding one. Louis light it with a match.

Stop the watch - 1 minute 24 seconds (and I feel as if I’m deliberately slowing things down unnecessarily….I'm certainly not speeding things up or cutting corners though)

Louis walks to the door and steps outside. The body is a few feet away but, as per his testimony, he sees the blood before he gets to it. And as per his testimony he immediately leaves…I’ll add a few seconds to allow for him suggesting this course of action to the men and for Koz to say that he’ll go with him. They leave.

Stop the watch - 1 minute 50 seconds.



…..Now I’ll Stretch it out and slow it down. Same starting point.


He grabs his whip and prods the shape a few times. He tentatively gets down and even gives it another prod. He checks his pockets and finds a match which he lights but it goes out. He repeats this twice more with the same result but the 4th match lights and he sees the body.

Stop the watch - 48 seconds

He goes into the club and asks in the kitchen where his wife his but no one is sure. He checks another room (if there was one) and then goes to the front room. He looks around but doesn’t see her straight away…then ‘ah, there she is, over there.’ He walks to her and tells her and the men about the body.

Stop the watch - 1 minute 29 seconds

He asks for match and Mrs Diemschitz and he walk to the kitchen, she opens a draw and passes him a candle which he lights.

Stop the watch - 1 minute 54 seconds

Louis walks into the yard and immediately sees the blood. He’s followed by members. There’s a brief chat about what should be done before Louis says that they have to go for a Constable and that he will go. He asks someone to come with him and Kozebrodsky offers. They exit.

Stop the watch - 2 minutes 42 seconds



With the second time it felt like I was deliberately slowing things down unnecessarily.


How could it possibly have been longer?

[Ms Diddles]

Your second version sounds about right to me, Herlock.

It's my experience that things rarely go exactly to plan (it takes several attempts to light a match; nobody knows exactly where your wife is, the candles aren't where they're supposed to be etc).

There's usually some unnecessary faffing about.

Agree it's unlikely to have taken significantly longer than that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your second version sounds about right to me, Herlock.

It's my experience that things rarely go exactly to plan (it takes several attempts to light a match; nobody knows exactly where your wife is, the candles aren't where they're supposed to be etc).

There's usually some unnecessary faffing about.

Agree it's unlikely to have taken significantly longer than that.

Any longer than that and we’re into walking on the moon territory.

[GBinOz]

Quick thought experiment using a stopwatch… accepting that we can’t be totally accurate. This is without speeding people up or slowing them down and it’s of course accepting that we can’t be certain of the club layout except that the events took place on the ground floor. I did this by imagining events whilst not looking at the stop watch.

Louis enters the yard and the horse shies and stops - stopwatch starts.

Louis picks up his whip, reaches down and prods at the body two or three times. He gets down from the cart, gets a match from his pocket and strikes it. It immediately goes out. He strikes another, that one goes out. He strikes a third which stays lit long enough for him to see that it’s a woman lying there.

Stop the watch - 29 seconds.

He goes inside the club looking for his wife to check that she isn’t lying in the yard, perhaps he goes into the kitchen first and is told that she’s in the front room. The front room can’t be far from the kitchen as this isn’t a huge building. Both rooms were probably off the same corridor. So I’ll allow that he goes to one room before reaching the front room.

Stop the watch - 41 seconds.

He looks into the room and sees that his wife is there. He then calls out to those in the room that there’s a woman lying in the yard. He needs a candle. I’d suggest that there would be candles on the tables but let’s suggest that his wife gets him one, sat from the kitchen. Every Victorian building would have candles so there would be no issue with finding one. Louis light it with a match.

Stop the watch - 1 minute 24 seconds (and I feel as if I’m deliberately slowing things down unnecessarily….I'm certainly not speeding things up or cutting corners though)

Louis walks to the door and steps outside. The body is a few feet away but, as per his testimony, he sees the blood before he gets to it. And as per his testimony he immediately leaves…I’ll add a few seconds to allow for him suggesting this course of action to the men and for Koz to say that he’ll go with him. They leave.

Stop the watch - 1 minute 50 seconds.



…..Now I’ll Stretch it out and slow it down. Same starting point.


He grabs his whip and prods the shape a few times. He tentatively gets down and even gives it another prod. He checks his pockets and finds a match which he lights but it goes out. He repeats this twice more with the same result but the 4th match lights and he sees the body.

Stop the watch - 48 seconds

He goes into the club and asks in the kitchen where his wife his but no one is sure. He checks another room (if there was one) and then goes to the front room. He looks around but doesn’t see her straight away…then ‘ah, there she is, over there.’ He walks to her and tells her and the men about the body.

Stop the watch - 1 minute 29 seconds

He asks for match and Mrs Diemschitz and he walk to the kitchen, she opens a draw and passes him a candle which he lights.

Stop the watch - 1 minute 54 seconds

Louis walks into the yard and immediately sees the blood. He’s followed by members. There’s a brief chat about what should be done before Louis says that they have to go for a Constable and that he will go. He asks someone to come with him and Kozebrodsky offers. They exit.

Stop the watch - 2 minutes 42 seconds

With the second time it felt like I was deliberately slowing things down unnecessarily.


How could it possibly have been longer?

Hi Herlock,

You might recall that we had this discussion some years ago. At the time I thought about 5 minutes, but I did an actual physical re-enactment and was surprised when the final stopwatch reading was one minute and fifty seconds. I didn't allow any time for discussion on what should be done, or why it should be done.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

You might recall that we had this discussion some years ago. At the time I thought about 5 minutes, but I did an actual physical re-enactment and was surprised when the final stopwatch reading was one minute and fifty seconds. I didn't allow any time for discussion on what should be done, or why it should be done.

Cheers, George

Hello George,

When I was doing this I did have a memory of you doing something along this line but I began to doubt my memory and I thought this I’d have been there all night trying to find out if you had. So my first run through was in line with your conclusion and my longer version adds just under a minute. I really do struggle to see how it could have been longer; let alone considerably longer. As Ms D said, there could have been an element of ‘faffing around’ (I don’t know if that saying is used in Oz but you’ll know what I mean) I don’t think that much discussion would have gone on though. I really think that it might easily have taken less than the 1 minute 50 seconds. For example, there might well have been candles on the tables which would eliminate any need to find one. Then he might have found his wife straight away. It might have been the second match that lit.

[Sam Flynn]

I'd put it at 4-5 minutes, to allow for "head-scratching time", making sure the pony wasn't still twitchy and prone to run off, and other possible contingencies. (Just a reflection of the fact that Dymshitz wasn't mechanically enacting a script, but doing things in the real world.) Unfortunately, that does mean I had to go for 5-10 minutes, as there wasn't an option to fill the gap between the first option and the second. Just pointing out that I'm firmly at the lower end of the 5-10 minute range.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'd put it at 4-5 minutes, to allow for "head-scratching time", making sure the pony wasn't still twitchy and prone to run off, and other possible contingencies. (Just a reflection of the fact that Dymshitz wasn't mechanically enacting a script, but doing things in the real world.) Unfortunately, that does mean I had to go for 5-10 minutes, as there wasn't an option to fill the gap between the first option and the second. Just pointing out that I'm firmly at the lower end of the 5-10 minute range.

Thanks Gareth. On reflection I should have widened the lower estimate a touch.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

I go for 2 minutes but I think it could easily have been less. Poking the corpse, jumping down and lighting a match unsuccessfully and going inside can only have taken 30 seconds tops. The room that his wife was in was the front ground floor so to walk inside and tell them ‘there’s a body in the yard’ pick up a candle and walk outside is another 30 seconds tops. Then he saw the blood before he’d even reached the body and immediately left. Twenty seconds tops.

I just can’t see it being stretched longer Ms D. Plus, when these kind of things happened people tend to rush around.

On a YouTube video I watched, the Ripper guide said the papers recounted Louis Diemschutz figured it was his wife, passed out drunk, in the yard. Then, when he went into the club to ask for a hand in bringing her in, and saw his wife hale and hearty, he was astonished, subsequently running back out and discovering the body of Liz Stride! No book on the subject I have read mentions this, and it is amazing to me how stories get grander and grander with the telling. I only mention this because I will be there in a couple of months and attempt to time it myself to best of my ability. I think it is well under 2 minutes, but this scenario I mentioned would tend to draw it out a bit, if it actually happened that way.

[FISHY1118]

Wish i knew how to do polls .

[Ms Diddles]

Wish i knew how to do polls .

Hi Fishy,

Just decide which category your poll belongs in (ie victims / suspects / pub talk).

Select "New Topic"

Click the wee graph icon at the top of the page and away you go!