The Problem With Times.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The witness that judged the time by pub closing time was Spooner in the Stride case. He estimated 12.35 as the time that he arrived at Dutfield’s Yard.

His 12.35 guess was clearly way out as it would have had Diemschitz discovering the body at around 12.30 which even Michael wouldn’t claim.

He also said (in the same statement):

“I stood by the side of the deceased about five minutes, till Police constable Lamb came.”

Which meant that he got to the yard sometime after 1.00.

So he was around 30 minutes out in his estimation of the time.

[Wickerman]

Probably as good a measure as any given that Victorians precisely managed pub opening and closing times in order to regulate working class drinking hours, and it follows ensure workers were at work when they were supposed to start. Publicans could lose their licence for not knowing the exact time in that period.

A different world.

I don't doubt you are right with your view of London as a whole. There can't be any debate that London was, if not punctually inclined, certainly heading fast in that direction when talking about the West End, Knightsbridge, the City, Fleet Street, Hyde Park, Kensington, etc., but we are here talking about the East End, this as your closing line says - "A different world" - a whole different world.

Who, in the East end needed a watch?
A doctor, banker, clerk, private business owner perhaps? - a minority, possibly not one in a hundred, but one in five hundred maybe?
If anyone had to be up for work on time, they'd give a few pennies to a beat constable to knock them up. Doctors made house calls, Hospitals & Banks were walk-in - no appointments necessary. So long as they could hear the quarter-hour chime, how much more accuracy was needed in their day to day life?
I think we'll never see eye-to-eye on this issue, the east end could survive quite well with a casual attention to punctuality. Nobody had to be anywhere this minute, five or ten minutes before or after was near enough. If you absolutely had to be somewhere, they would show up early rather than be fined for being late.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I don't doubt you are right with your view of London as a whole. There can't be any debate that London was, if not punctually inclined, certainly heading fast in that direction when talking about the West End, Knightsbridge, the City, Fleet Street, Hyde Park, Kensington, etc., but we are here talking about the East End, this as your closing line says - "A different world" - a whole different world.

Who, in the East end needed a watch?
A doctor, banker, clerk, private business owner perhaps? - a minority, possibly not one in a hundred, but one in five hundred maybe?
If anyone had to be up for work on time, they'd give a few pennies to a beat constable to knock them up. Doctors made house calls, Hospitals & Banks were walk-in - no appointments necessary. So long as they could hear the quarter-hour chime, how much more accuracy was needed in their day to day life?
I think we'll never see eye-to-eye on this issue, the east end could survive quite well with a casual attention to punctuality. Nobody had to be anywhere this minute, five or ten minutes before or after was near enough. If you absolutely had to be somewhere, they would show up early rather than be fined for being late.

Timekeeping was important to the working classes, given the working classes were regulated in their social activities, e.g. licencing laws, and working hours.

Incidentally, Joseph Lawende had a pocket watch. He knew the time by the club clock and his pocket watch.

In the event nobody was able to keep time in the East End, then how were Joseph's pocket watch and the club clock synchronised? Was it just luck on this occasion?

[Herlock Sholmes]

?

How can we know that they were synchronised? But if they were why is it a mystery?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Because Joseph couldn't have been certain of the time had his pocket watch and the club clock not being telling the same time.

It's your point that the clocks couldn't be trusted and nobody was able to keep time, but it turns out that the club clock and Joseph agreed on the time. Was it mere luck or coincidence that while nobody was able to keep time, both Joseph and the club agreed on the time? Coincidence that they were wrong by pretty much the exact same margin? That would be an enormous slice of luck. In the event clocks and watches should all be treated as being 10/15 minutes out either way, as you claim, how did Joseph and the club clock agree on the time (given your half an hour spectrum of time possibility or whatever)?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Because Joseph couldn't have been certain of the time had his pocket watch and the club clock not being telling the same time.

So if a watch matches a clock this means that this can be taken as the exact time? Are you really making this claim?

It's your point that the clocks couldn't be trusted and nobody was able to keep time, but it turns out that the club clock and Joseph agreed on the time. Was it mere luck or coincidence that while nobody was able to keep time, both Joseph and the club agreed on the time? Coincidence that they were wrong by pretty much the exact same margin? That would be an enormous slice of luck.

How do you know that Lawende’s watch was a different time to the club’s clock but he re-set it to that clock?

In the event clocks and watches should all be treated as being 10/15 minutes out either way, as you claim, how did Joseph and the club clock agree on the time (given your half an hour spectrum of time possibility or whatever)?

I’ve never placed a set time on how much clocks or watches might have been wrong by. All that I’ve done is to take the entirely reasonable and sensible approach that it would be barking mad to assume that all clocks and watches were spot on synchronised. The fact that you are so bothered by something which should be obvious to all makes me wonder why? If clocks and watches can be wrong or poorly synchronised in 2023 (as we both know that they can) why on earth would you think that Victorian clocks and watches were better?

If we view any aspect of this case, or any case, without making an absolutely required allowed for a margin for error then we aren’t taking an honest approach. I’m surprised that you can even question this. And the fact that 16 out of 17 agree on this speaks volumes.

[Fleetwood Mac]

How do you know that Lawende’s watch was a different time to the club’s clock but he re-set it to that clock?

This sounds very much like your 'we just don't know' emergency when you're unable to discuss reasonably.

Had Joseph set his watch according to the club clock, then there would have been no reason to look at his watch and the clock. He would have known that they told the same time.

Joseph was a cigarette maker, he would have had meetings with acquaintances related to that trade. According to you, nobody's clock and watch was accurate, therefore Joseph would have turned up to these meetings early or late, and likewise his acquaintances. It follows that according to your view of Victorian time-keeping, Joseph would have known that the clocks couldn't be relied upon.

So, why would Joseph have set his watch according to a clock that couldn't be replied upon? Why would Joseph think he knew the time by looking at that clock, and state at the inquest that he knew the time, when, according to your world; he would have known the clocks couldn't be relied upon?

[Elamarna]

Both Lawende and Levy, said they used the club clock, Lawende also says he used his watch.

Several points,

1. Although using the same source, Lawende and Levy quote slightly different times for the same events.

2. How do we know the watch was syncronizied to the Club clock?

The difference mentioned above COULD be due to the watch and clock not being syncronizied, and who is to say which if either was correct.

Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

This sounds very much like your 'we just don't know' emergency when you're unable to discuss reasonably.

Or it could be that I don’t assume to know everything. If something is unknown we should be honest enough to admit it. If we only know something as a possible we should admit that it’s only a possible. You evidently see caution as a failing. A strange outlook for a historian.

Had Joseph set his watch according to the club clock, then there would have been no reason to look at his watch and the clock. He would have known that they told the same time.

A strange suggestion. No one is suggesting that he went out of his way to look at a clock. Do you think it somehow outlandish behaviour for a man to look up at a clock and then check his watch? It’s perfectly normal behaviour. But you prefer to try and see the sinister or the suspicious in everything.

Joseph was a cigarette maker, he would have had meetings with acquaintances related to that trade. According to you, nobody's clock and watch was accurate, therefore Joseph would have turned up to these meetings early or late, and likewise his acquaintances. It follows that according to your view of Victorian time-keeping, Joseph would have known that the clocks couldn't be relied upon.

Again, a remarkable looseness in the use of facts for an historian. I’ve never once claimed that no one’s clocks or watches were accurate. Only that it’s prudent to accept the possibility of inaccuracy and poor synchronisation.

So, why would Joseph have set his watch according to a clock that couldn't be replied upon? Why would Joseph think he knew the time by looking at that clock, and state at the inquest that he knew the time, when, according to your world; he would have known the clocks couldn't be relied upon?

Why is it impossible that someone could set their watch by a clock that they ‘assume’ to be accurate? Why is it impossible that such an assumption could have been wrong? Is it impossible that a clock could have previously been accurate but wasn’t at a later time.

Admitting that some things can’t be known is not a failing. But the opposite (your stance) certainly us.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Both Lawende and Levy, said they used the club clock, Lawende also says he used his watch.

Several points,

1. Although using the same source, Lawende and Levy quote slightly different times for the same events.

2. How do we know the watch was syncronizied to the Club clock?

The difference mentioned above COULD be due to the watch and clock not being syncronizied, and who is to say which if either was correct.

Steve

I've already replied to your question on Lawende above, Steve. 'No use in repeating myself.

Levy is irrelevant to Lawende's viewing of the clock and his watch, although they both said it was half one.

[Elamarna]

I've already replied to your question on Lawende above, Steve. 'No use in repeating myself.

Levy is irrelevant to Lawende's viewing of the clock and his watch, although they both said it was half one.

I personally consider Lawende a poor candidate for the suspect, I was surprised myself how poorly he rated when I did a talk for the Rippercast online conference in 2021.

Levy is far from irrelevant to the issue of timings, he shows just how people using the same source for the same events can give different time.
I am amazed you say he is irrelevant . But then again maybe not given some of the other interpretations of yours I have seen.
Each to their own.

Steve

[Fleetwood Mac]

I personally consider Lawende a poor candidate for the suspect, I was surprised myself how poorly he rated when I did a talk for the Rippercast online conference in 2021.

Levy is far from irrelevant to the issue of timings, he shows just how people using the same source for the same events can give different time.
I am amazed you say he is irrelevant . But then again maybe not given some of the other interpretations of yours I have seen.
Each to their own.

Steve

I've no idea what you mean by 'Lawende poor candidate' but either way it has nothing whatsoever to do with my post.

On Levy, what you are attempting to discuss is nothing whatsoever to do Lawende looking at his watch and the club clock, and concluding that he knew the time.

What you're attempting to discuss is this: when they both said it was half one, how long was it before they actually left the club. This has nothing whatsoever to do with my post.

What you're certainly not doing is attempting to respond to the points put forward.

[Paul Sutton]

My guess is that most people in the East End estimated time from the quarter-hour chimes they heard.

If you measure something with a millimetre ruler, then the length is accurate to plus/minus 0.5mm - a range of a millimetre. So, for most people, their times were accurate to fifteen minutes.

This makes sense - say you'd just heard the chimes for 3:30am (chosen on purpose). If you were asked what the time was, you might well answer 3:30, even up to 3:44. Sure, you might say - 'past 3:30' - but it could well just get reported as 3:30.

Of course, it's very easy to mishear. I've an ancient grandfather clock, which chimes the quarters. It's dead easy, when tired, to mishear.