Originally posted by The Rookie Detective
View Post
When police times are given weight in the timeline, Diemschitz can't be arriving any later that about 12:55. Had Goldstein walked south through Berner St just prior to Fanny locking up, both his time and route become almost identical to that described by Schwartz. I've read a lot of old Berner St threads - how is it that no one has ever noticed this?
Now Schwartz said he was almost at the gateway when he saw BS man attack Stride. The distance between Mrs Mortimer's house and the gateway is only around 20 yards or so.
https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-berner-street
Now WHEN Mrs Mortimer saw the man with the bag walking hurriedly before looking up at the club, she may have witnessed Schwartz noticing BS man and then walking hurriedly past the gateway.
In other words, when Mortimer saw Goldstein/Schwarts look up at the club, that may have been the exact moment when Stride was assaulted and NOT at 12.45am.
In other words, when Mortimer saw Goldstein/Schwarts look up at the club, that may have been the exact moment when Stride was assaulted and NOT at 12.45am.
The problem being that Fanny doesn't seem to have noticed this quarrel. However, as no one else seems to have noticed what Schwartz did, I suggest that the time of the incident was nothing like 12:45. Hence Fanny Mortimer's use of the word 'previously', which would otherwise have been redundant.
But why then would Schwartz say 12.45am instead of around 1am?
Well perhaps the following is also true...
When Goldstein saw Stride being attacked, he hurriedly walked past and then went around the corner to avoid the scene; similar to Schwartz fleeing the scene in his statement.
Now what would be the reason for Goldstein to invent Schwartz to state a time of 12.45am?
Well IF Goldstein realized that the man who attacked Stride was someone he recognized from the club, then he approached Wess and told him he saw the attack. Wess in an attempt to sweep things under the carpet then told Goldstein to go to the police, but not JUST to try and explain him being in Berner Street with his bag, but also to try and take the focus away from members of the club.
Goldstein goes to the police AFTER he knows he was spotted and because he knows he was ssen around the time of the murder at 1am, he cant lie to the police and say he was there earlier. He then decides to go to the police as a Jew named Schwartz and then tells the police of an assault occuring at 12.45am INSTEAD of the actual time the assault took place at 1am.
That would explain why nobody else witnesses the assault at 12.45am...because that time was falsely given to detract from the fact that Goldstein had witnessed the actual assault 15 minutes later.
Well perhaps the following is also true...
When Goldstein saw Stride being attacked, he hurriedly walked past and then went around the corner to avoid the scene; similar to Schwartz fleeing the scene in his statement.
Now what would be the reason for Goldstein to invent Schwartz to state a time of 12.45am?
Well IF Goldstein realized that the man who attacked Stride was someone he recognized from the club, then he approached Wess and told him he saw the attack. Wess in an attempt to sweep things under the carpet then told Goldstein to go to the police, but not JUST to try and explain him being in Berner Street with his bag, but also to try and take the focus away from members of the club.
Goldstein goes to the police AFTER he knows he was spotted and because he knows he was ssen around the time of the murder at 1am, he cant lie to the police and say he was there earlier. He then decides to go to the police as a Jew named Schwartz and then tells the police of an assault occuring at 12.45am INSTEAD of the actual time the assault took place at 1am.
That would explain why nobody else witnesses the assault at 12.45am...because that time was falsely given to detract from the fact that Goldstein had witnessed the actual assault 15 minutes later.
Now WHO could Goldstein have seen?
Well, let's look at Parcel man...now he could have been the killer, but he could have also have been Eagle, who returned to the club at the same time that PC Smith saw parcelman.
Noe being a guy with a girlfriend/fiancee; he would have been unlikely to have admitted talking to Stride as he went back towards the side door of the club. Stride was there and Eagle must have seen her as he walked through the gateway.
She wasn't on the floor, because he spoke to her and just didnt want to admit it for fear of bringing suspicion upon himself.
I suggest that the man Joseph Lave; who gave varying duration as to his time spent in the yard could also have been parcel man, but was more likely to have been the man who assaulted her.
Now this brings us back to WHY was Stride standing outside the club/by the gateway to the yard?
Well she may have been recently dating someone from the club; perhaps the man seen with her exiting the Bricklayers Arms then went with Stride to the club, but being a non-Jew the man asked her to wait outside while he went inside to take care of business.
And perhaps the reasons WHY Mrs Mortimer saw nobody enter the yard AND the reason why the killer appeared to vanish when Diemschultz entered the yard, is because AFTER cutting her throat, the killer went BACK into the club and so NEVER came out of the gateway the entire time.
The killer may have had some cachous in the club and he stepped out to kiss her...BUT he was a SMOKER...and AFTER kissing her, he gave her some cachous...and then he cut her throat. Like a kiss of death.
Now when Goldstein invented Schwartz to concoct the story of Bs Man and Pipeman, THAT story would have held elements of truth in order to better sell the lie.
Well, let's look at Parcel man...now he could have been the killer, but he could have also have been Eagle, who returned to the club at the same time that PC Smith saw parcelman.
Noe being a guy with a girlfriend/fiancee; he would have been unlikely to have admitted talking to Stride as he went back towards the side door of the club. Stride was there and Eagle must have seen her as he walked through the gateway.
She wasn't on the floor, because he spoke to her and just didnt want to admit it for fear of bringing suspicion upon himself.
I suggest that the man Joseph Lave; who gave varying duration as to his time spent in the yard could also have been parcel man, but was more likely to have been the man who assaulted her.
Now this brings us back to WHY was Stride standing outside the club/by the gateway to the yard?
Well she may have been recently dating someone from the club; perhaps the man seen with her exiting the Bricklayers Arms then went with Stride to the club, but being a non-Jew the man asked her to wait outside while he went inside to take care of business.
And perhaps the reasons WHY Mrs Mortimer saw nobody enter the yard AND the reason why the killer appeared to vanish when Diemschultz entered the yard, is because AFTER cutting her throat, the killer went BACK into the club and so NEVER came out of the gateway the entire time.
The killer may have had some cachous in the club and he stepped out to kiss her...BUT he was a SMOKER...and AFTER kissing her, he gave her some cachous...and then he cut her throat. Like a kiss of death.
Now when Goldstein invented Schwartz to concoct the story of Bs Man and Pipeman, THAT story would have held elements of truth in order to better sell the lie.
And so the truth would be that...
As Goldstein returned to Berner Street from the coffee shop, he walked towards the club door. At the exact time that Mortimer then sees Goldstein, Goldstein has just seen Stride being attacked and so hurried across the road just like in his story as Schwartz. The crucial clue being that the time of 12.45am is clearly NOT correct based on all the other witnesses statements.
And so maybe Schwartz story is partly true but the timing deliberately changed to negate the fact that Goldstein almost certainly saw her killer.
Now that would suggest that Stride wasn;t a victim of JTR becuase AFTER killing Stride, the Ripper would have need to have gone to Mitre Square.
However, IF the killer did indeed go back into the club, he could then have been one of the men who ran out to go and look for a policeman.
Are there any of the club members who didn't return back to the club AFTER Stride's body was found?
The man who killed Stride could have used the "let's go look for help" as a means by which to escape and had towards Mitre Square. That is of course only relevant IF Stride was murdered by JTR.
Are there also ANY of the club members who DIDN'T actively go out and look for police? That could be another way to escape the scene undetected.
And so...thought please?
As Goldstein returned to Berner Street from the coffee shop, he walked towards the club door. At the exact time that Mortimer then sees Goldstein, Goldstein has just seen Stride being attacked and so hurried across the road just like in his story as Schwartz. The crucial clue being that the time of 12.45am is clearly NOT correct based on all the other witnesses statements.
And so maybe Schwartz story is partly true but the timing deliberately changed to negate the fact that Goldstein almost certainly saw her killer.
Now that would suggest that Stride wasn;t a victim of JTR becuase AFTER killing Stride, the Ripper would have need to have gone to Mitre Square.
However, IF the killer did indeed go back into the club, he could then have been one of the men who ran out to go and look for a policeman.
Are there any of the club members who didn't return back to the club AFTER Stride's body was found?
The man who killed Stride could have used the "let's go look for help" as a means by which to escape and had towards Mitre Square. That is of course only relevant IF Stride was murdered by JTR.
Are there also ANY of the club members who DIDN'T actively go out and look for police? That could be another way to escape the scene undetected.
And so...thought please?
Comment