The Stride Murder

[Lewis C]

I think my last few posts have been ambiguous due to being rushed a bit. Sorry about that.

I was referring to the police footsteps / 10-minute vigil report, not the half-hour report. You said ...



My point was just that the 10-minute report explains why she didn't see Smith. That is, assuming the accuracy of that report.



That's a good point too.

When I was first on this forum, I noticed people would occasionally say things like "Fanny didn't see James Brown". What? How could we know if Fanny had caught a glimpse of Brown going to and/or returning from the chandler's shop? It's as though there was an assumption, she was standing there writing the comings and goings she witnessed, in a journal, which she then handed over to the associated press for transcription and publication in the papers. No, it was just another night ... until it wasn't.

I find it conceivable that Fanny witnessed the return of Eagle, even though she was quoted as saying "... I did not observe any one enter the gates". I think she's referring to the period after hearing the policeman's footsteps. That could be wrong, of course, but the point is that the individuals whose image landed on Fanny's retinas in the period leading up to the discovery, are probably a superset of the people she mentioned to the press.

I absolutely agree that if Mortimer was only at her door for 10 minutes, then it makes perfect sense that she wouldn't have seen Smith. In fact, the idea of her going to her door after Smith passed seems to be what would fit the evidence best.

Because Mortimer said the street was quiet and deserted and she only saw one person pass, I tend to believe her recollection, whereas if she had said that she saw 3 people pass, I would think she could easily have forgotten if there was a 4th. However, I'm open to the possibility that she might have seen someone else provided that it was something not very memorable.

[Lewis C]

The front door. Although I don't think that's what you're getting at.

I want to know if those quotes make sense together, given a subtle change of interpretation. However, the interpretation requires a decent theory plus evidence.

Essentially, the Schwartz incident might make sense had it occurred when the street was noisier and known witnesses were absent. Then it might be able to blend in, largely unnoticed. For example, one could get away with exclaiming 'Lipski' outside the club, if there are 100 people inside, singing.

Also, there is a way of looking at the transit of Berner St by Schwartz and Goldstein, so that the two identities merge into one.

You may have understood what I was getting at, but to clarify, here was your post:

Assuming all quotes are of Fanny.

I did not observe anyone enter the gates.

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I must have seen him.

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

Does she mean?...

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I would have seen him.

OR

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock that must have been the man I did see.

My thought was that a possible way to reconcile the statements was that she didn't see anyone leave the Socialist Club, but there may have been a way for the man to have left the Socialist Club that she couldn't see, she was aware of that, and she was speculating that that might be what happened.

[Wickerman]

I absolutely agree that if Mortimer was only at her door for 10 minutes, then it makes perfect sense that she wouldn't have seen Smith. In fact, the idea of her going to her door after Smith passed seems to be what would fit the evidence best.

That indeed seems to be the case, the mention of "10 minutes" came after she heard that 'heavy tramp', which came just before 12:45.
So the "10 minutes" appears to have been 12:45 - 12:55, that no-one entered or exited the yard.
Mortimer goes back in the house about 12:55.

[The Rookie Detective]

That indeed seems to be the case, the mention of "10 minutes" came after she heard that 'heavy tramp', which came just before 12:45.
So the "10 minutes" appears to have been 12:45 - 12:55, that no-one entered or exited the yard.
Mortimer goes back in the house about 12:55.

When Mortimer heard the "heavy tramp"...was she able to confirm which direction the sound of the tramping went?

Could the sound have been going away from the murder scene and not toward it?

Could the "heavy tramping" have been mistaken and could it have been the sound of Diemschultz returning with his cart?

And could Diemschultz have actually returned earlier that he said he had?


RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ha ha! Brilliant!

Cheeky, I would say. However, ...

It's bizarre how with so many "witnesses" at the Stride murder...and yet in the lead-up, no one seems to have seen anyone else.

No one saw Eagle leave the club with his girlfriend
No one saw Eagle go back to the club, Eagle saw no one.
No one saw Lave and Lave saw no one
Schwartz saw Bs Man and Pipeman, yet no one saw Schwartz
No one else saw BS man
No one else saw Pipeman
PC Smith saw Stride with a man, yetno one saw PC Smith
Brown saw a couple, yet no one saw Brown
Marshall saw a couple, yet no one saw Marshall
Mortimer saw Goldstein, but no one else
Letchford saw no one at all
His sister also saw no one at all
Packer saw Stride with a man and yet no one saw Packer
Lots of random people running in all directions to look for a policeman
2 whistles were heard, but only one was blown by a policeman

Something doesn't quite add up here.

The only thing we know for sure is that Stride was murdered just inside that gateway


And that's it


How is that possible?


RD

... my point is that who witnesses saw is not the same as who witnessed remembered seeing, which is not the same as who witnesses mentioned seeing, which is not the same as the names that ended up in a newspaper report.

Letchford: I passed through the street at half-past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual ...

How do you deduce from that that Letchford saw no one? Imagine a security guard reporting on an incident at a shopping center, and mentioning this ...

I passed through the center at half-past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual ...

Did the guard see anyone? Of course, he did.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, the "third door from the yard" make the address No.36 (ie; 40-38-36), which was Mortimer's address.
This was accepted by many, plus her story being very similar sort of clinched it. However, the quote does not say the woman was stood in her own doorway. Mrs Artisan is introduced as speaking to neighbours in front of this door. Which means Mrs Artisan does not necessarily live there, she was just talking to a neighbour in front of Mortimer's door.
Possibly, Mrs Artisan knew Mortimer and was stood there chatting with her and another neighbour, if so we are nowhere near a solution.

The interview does mention the doorway.

... I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police.

The odds are in favour of this being Fanny.

That said, if we brush aside those minutae, we can accept Mrs Artisan is Mrs Mortimer, but then how to explain her describing Goldstein walking in the opposite direction?

If we changed ...

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...

to ...

... the only man I seen who had seen who had passed through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...

... it would all seem to make sense.

Apologies for the bad grammar, on behalf of Fanny.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I see it just a little differently, Mortimer had been at the door at 12:30, but had returned inside after a few minutes. Her next comment is hearing the heavy tramp, it's just that I would place Eagle's return just minutes before the 'footsteps', she didn't see Eagle, or Lave, because she was back in the house.

I think that is a strong possibility. What I'm saying is that her seeing Eagle is not extremely unlikely. She said of black bag man ...

He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me.

If Eagle was not a stranger, his returning to the club may not have been unusual for her to observe, and possibly not even remembered. Just like Eagle himself ...

Did you see anyone about in Berner-street? - I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.

He may have seen Fanny, he may have seen Lave, and he may have seen others.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't know if this will help in any way, this is my Mortimer Clock. It attempts to gather the more pertinent points spread across various newspapers.

I doubt the 4 minute gap was reality. If Fanny had mentioned going to her door at about a quarter to one, and being there for about 10 minutes, she would know that her locking up was 4, 5 or 6 minutes before one. So, why does she say?...

If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him.

That implies to me that lockup was probably occurring right about the time the sound of the pony and cart was becoming audible.

It seems the reporter was trying really hard to work out when the murderer and victim entered the yard ...

Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived.

When the policeman passed, Stride was obviously not laying in the yard. The report combines reporting with what people do on this forum.

It would be interesting to hear where people would place Stride and Parcelman, Schwartz, Eagle, Lave, Letchford, Smith, and Mortimer pre-Smith, on the clock. I imagine it could get kinda messy.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You may have understood what I was getting at, but to clarify, here was your post:

Assuming all quotes are of Fanny.

I did not observe anyone enter the gates.

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I must have seen him.

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

Does she mean?...

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I would have seen him.

OR

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock that must have been the man I did see.

My thought was that a possible way to reconcile the statements was that she didn't see anyone leave the Socialist Club, but there may have been a way for the man to have left the Socialist Club that she couldn't see, she was aware of that, and she was speculating that that might be what happened.

I see what you mean now. I don't think she was speculating, given this from the same interview ...

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That indeed seems to be the case, the mention of "10 minutes" came after she heard that 'heavy tramp', which came just before 12:45.
So the "10 minutes" appears to have been 12:45 - 12:55, that no-one entered or exited the yard.
Mortimer goes back in the house about 12:55.

12:45 is 'Mortimer time', not 'Smith time'. Also, the famous 10 minutes was possibly a guess. It might have actually been 7 or 14.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The interview does mention the doorway.

... I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police.

The odds are in favour of this being Fanny.



If we changed ...

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...

to ...

... the only man I seen who had seen who had passed through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...

... it would all seem to make sense.

Apologies for the bad grammar, on behalf of Fanny.

Let me get the 'to' right ...

... the only man I seen who had passed through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...

I'm sleep deprived this week

[Wickerman]

When Mortimer heard the "heavy tramp"...was she able to confirm which direction the sound of the tramping went?

Could the sound have been going away from the murder scene and not toward it?

Could the "heavy tramping" have been mistaken and could it have been the sound of Diemschultz returning with his cart?

And could Diemschultz have actually returned earlier that he said he had?


RD

I found no account attributed to Mortimer where she makes a distinction, the footsteps either coming or going.
She does identify Diemshutz's cart coming back separate to the footsteps, in fact separated by roughly quarter of an hour.
She heard Diem. come back just minutes before 1:00 am, by her time.

[Wickerman]

The interview does mention the doorway.

... I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police.

The odds are in favour of this being Fanny.

What I mean is, this woman is stood outside No.36, and she says "I come in from my door", but we don't know which door is hers.
The report doesn't say "the woman was stood in this doorway".
See what I mean?
There were two or three women chatting together, likely two of them lived somewhere else, but which two? No doubt as they were standing outside No.36, one of them would likely be the resident of 36 - Mrs Mortimer.
I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and accept Mrs Artisan was Mrs Mortimer, but it's not an obvious conclusion, it's a choice, thats all.

If we changed ...

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...

to ...

... the only man I seen who had seen who had passed through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...

... it would all seem to make sense.

Apologies for the bad grammar, on behalf of Fanny.

I'm not seeing the distinction, sorry.

[Wickerman]

12:45 is 'Mortimer time', not 'Smith time'. Also, the famous 10 minutes was possibly a guess. It might have actually been 7 or 14.

Yes, each witness was operating in their own time window, and all their times are guesswork, except the doctors.

[Wickerman]

If we changed ...

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...

to ...

... the only man I seen who had seen who had passed through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...

... it would all seem to make sense.

Apologies for the bad grammar, on behalf of Fanny.

Let me get the 'to' right ...

... the only man I seen who had passed through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag ...

I'm sleep deprived this week

Shouldn't 'seen' be 'saw'?

I'm still not seeing any arguable difference between the two lines.