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  • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    Didn't Deiemschultz state or imply that he believed that the killer may have still been lurking further up in the yard, due to the reaction of the Pony? I got the impression that the Pony became unsettled.

    The pony IS important, because presumably someone must have taken the Pony and Cart to the stable at the end of the yard after the body was discovered.
    ...
    (Diemshutz)....Witness had with him a costermonger's barrow, and it was drawn by a pony. The pony was not kept in the yard of the club, but in George-yard, Cable-street. He drove home for the purpose of leaving his goods. He drove into the yard, and saw that both gates were wide open. It was rather dark there. He drove in as usual, and as he entered the gate his pony shied to the left. Witness looked to the ground on his right, and then saw something lying there, but was unable to distinguish what it was. Witness tried to feel the object with his whip before he got down. He then jumped down and struck a match. It was rather windy, but he was able to get a light sufficient to tell it was a woman lying there. He then went into the club, and saw his wife in the front room on the ground floor. He left his pony in the yard, just outside the club door, by itself.
    Times, 2 Oct. 1888.

    Someone had to later detach the cart and leave it at the end of the yard, then lead the horse to Cable-street, this after the police investigation.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

      I think your definition of the end of the incident is much better than just equating the whole incident to Schwartz's transit of Berner St.

      Is Schwartz easily accounted for? Many posters have supposed that Woolf Wess was the man who translated for Schwartz at the police station. Wess was also the man who told a reporter about a man being chased in an easterly direction along Fairclough St, possibly being misidentified as the murderer. Interestingly, there is no BS man in that story, but what is more relevant to the current conversation is that we have a witness who places himself on Fairclough St, at and around 12:45 - Edward Spooner.

      It is true that Mortimer gave no indication of having seen Stride at any time before Fanny enters the yard. However, we do know pretty much exactly where she was at about 12:39 - across the road from the Mortimer residence, talking to a man holding a parcel. To me, fitting this picture to that of Stride standing soon after in the gateway, seemingly alone, always feels like a kid trying to force two jigsaw puzzle pieces together, that don't quite fit.

      Having BS-man go into the club, or Pipeman returning to kill with Stride conveniently waiting at the gates, are notions I find difficult to accept. Had BS-man walked off, and Pipeman not returned, what happens next? Is that when we say, "and that's when JtR came along"?


      That is just what one report suggests (with timing a little different). However, that report is open to query.


      It is the couple who mentioned 20 minutes, not Mortimer. Fanny spoke to the couple after the discovery, but it's not clear she had line of sight to the couple, where they had been standing.
      If BS Man walked off and Pipeman didn't return, Stride's killer would have had to come along very soon afterward. The likelihood of him just happening to come along right after that seems rather remote to me, so if the Schwartz incident is real, it seems that Stride's killer is almost certainly either BS Man, Pipeman, or someone that was in the area at the time that Schwartz didn't see.

      I don't think Mortimer saw the couple before the murder. She said that the man with the bag was the only one she saw. When I said that I thought that Mortimer was mistaken, I meant that it was my impression that Mortimer is our source for what the couple said, that the newspaper that reported what the couple said was reporting what Mortimer told the reporter that the couple said. I could be wrong about that.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

        The pony and cart together would have been longer than the passage was wide.

        I think it would be interesting to recreate the discovery, as closely as possible, and see if we learn anything. Would a pony in this hypothetical, shy to the left and then stand there calmly? I'll believe that that's what occurred, when I see it.
        I live in the country, have good experience of being around animals, wildlife photography is my main hobby, I've read a lot about animals over the years simply because I love animals of all shapes and sizes, from spiders to sheep to birds to pretty much any animal.

        While not an expert on ponies, I know enough to know that the pony's sense of smell would have detected another creature that could have been a threat. Whether or not that creature was dead or alive is irrelevant, the pony would only have known that there was a potential threat.

        Had the pony been wild and in the middle of an open field, it more than likely would have bolted. But, it's not, its owner has the pony to heel and it's not going anywhere, in the same way your dog wouldn't simply run off into the distance because of a threat, when your dog is with its owner.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

          If BS Man walked off and Pipeman didn't return, Stride's killer would have had to come along very soon afterward. The likelihood of him just happening to come along right after that seems rather remote to me, so if the Schwartz incident is real, it seems that Stride's killer is almost certainly either BS Man, Pipeman, or someone that was in the area at the time that Schwartz didn't see.
          Have you tried solving this sequence problem without including the story by Schwartz?
          The police had Parcel-man as their prime suspect as published on 1st Oct. - this was their conclusion devoid of Schwartz's story. By the end of the week they had added two more (BS-man & Pipeman), but then we hear rumors of police doubt surfacing.

          I don't think Mortimer saw the couple before the murder. She said that the man with the bag was the only one she saw. When I said that I thought that Mortimer was mistaken, I meant that it was my impression that Mortimer is our source for what the couple said, that the newspaper that reported what the couple said was reporting what Mortimer told the reporter that the couple said. I could be wrong about that.
          That's not exactly what Mortimer said though.
          There may have been people standing around, or coming in & out of the club, but Goldstein was the only one she saw passing through Berner St. - not the only one in the street.

          First, Mortimer says, "I did not notice anything unusual".
          Then she says, "I did not observe anyone enter the gates".
          She also added, "The only person I had seen pass through the street previously, was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast from the direction of Commercial Rd. He looked up at the club, then went round the corner by the Board School........if a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I must have seen him".
          Finally, she says, "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yds away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered".

          She doesn't actually say there was no-one in the street, on the contrary she mentions both Goldstein & the 'sweetheart' couple 20 yds away..
          So, from the above, the street was normal, people coming & going quietly. She did not see Eagle enter the yard as he claimed. She may have seen Lave, because he said he came out into the street at 12:30, to get some fresh air. No-one entered the yard while he was there, which is confirmed by Mortimer.
          She was there about 10 minutes, and so was Lave, and neither saw anyone enter Dutfields Yard, Mortimer went back inside.
          Lave then returns to the club, and Eagle about the same time (12:40) also comes back to the club by the yard door.
          At this point it appears (re. Mortimer) the street was empty.
          Finally, Mortimer claimed to be stood at her door from roughly 12:45 - 12:55, and in that 10 minutes she saw no-one enter or leave the yard.


          Last edited by Wickerman; 10-01-2023, 06:26 PM.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by New Waterloo View Post
            It does seem increasingly likely that Schwartz may have the wrong street. Something is definitely amiss here which to be honest we seem to be struggling with. However we seem to be getting somewhere all be it slowly. I think Schwartz would have described the location as the working men's club or similar name when talking of the gateway. The club was very well known and I believe only the Saturday before William Morris had made a speech at the club. There were many prominent political speakers and music events held there. As you all know it was not a sleepy venue. However I believe the newspaper report says that he was lodging in Berners Street so something is wrong. Do we know what number he lived at. I know I must not assume things but surely he would have identified the location in his report to the press and police. NW
            I would presume the Berner St address was noted in his police statement.

            We have no idea what number he lived at. Coincidently, the man and woman seen by Marshall stood opposite 58 Berner St, then headed off toward Ellen St. Schwartz gave 22 Ellen St as his address.
            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

              Diem. says he reached down with his whip to prod the object, which means the horse has passed the woman, it is the cart that is now beside the body when he prods it, but urges the cart forward to make room for him getting down to investigate.

              I've never understood the question about the horse, there is no consequence that I can see.
              I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match.

              I don't see this urging forward.

              How far was Stride inside the line of the gates? At least the width of one gate plus her body length. It's 18 feet from gates to door. At the point that he supposedly tries to lift the body with his whip handle, while still sitting on his cart, the pony would already be outside the door.

              On seeing the body and the blood, his wife said "I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard." An interesting scenario.
              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

                If BS Man walked off and Pipeman didn't return, Stride's killer would have had to come along very soon afterward. The likelihood of him just happening to come along right after that seems rather remote to me, so if the Schwartz incident is real, it seems that Stride's killer is almost certainly either BS Man, Pipeman, or someone that was in the area at the time that Schwartz didn't see.
                Considering the discussion about Stride holding cachous in one hand and a piece of paper in the other, that may have contained grapes, is it difficult if not impossible to suppose that BS-man was her killer?

                I don't think Mortimer saw the couple before the murder. She said that the man with the bag was the only one she saw. When I said that I thought that Mortimer was mistaken, I meant that it was my impression that Mortimer is our source for what the couple said, that the newspaper that reported what the couple said was reporting what Mortimer told the reporter that the couple said. I could be wrong about that.
                Is ...

                ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously ...

                equivalent to ...

                ... the only man whom I had seen at any time ....

                Do you really think that in that half hour period in which she is on her doorstep for most of it, she would only have seen one man?
                Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

                  I live in the country, have good experience of being around animals, wildlife photography is my main hobby, I've read a lot about animals over the years simply because I love animals of all shapes and sizes, from spiders to sheep to birds to pretty much any animal.

                  While not an expert on ponies, I know enough to know that the pony's sense of smell would have detected another creature that could have been a threat. Whether or not that creature was dead or alive is irrelevant, the pony would only have known that there was a potential threat.

                  Had the pony been wild and in the middle of an open field, it more than likely would have bolted. But, it's not, its owner has the pony to heel and it's not going anywhere, in the same way your dog wouldn't simply run off into the distance because of a threat, when your dog is with its owner.
                  Thanks for that
                  Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                    Have you tried solving this sequence problem without including the story by Schwartz?
                    The police had Parcel-man as their prime suspect as published on 1st Oct. - this was their conclusion devoid of Schwartz's story. By the end of the week they had added two more (BS-man & Pipeman), but then we hear rumors of police doubt surfacing.
                    Arguably, the police support for Schwartz is less than usually supposed. Had Swanson's report been written to give the best possible impression of progress, then his remark about the police report of Schwartz's statement casting no doubt on Schwartz, possibly suggests that other than that, support was lacking.

                    That's not exactly what Mortimer said though.
                    There may have been people standing around, or coming in & out of the club, but Goldstein was the only one she saw passing through Berner St. - not the only one in the street.

                    First, Mortimer says, "I did not notice anything unusual".
                    Then she says, "I did not observe anyone enter the gates".
                    She also added, "The only person I had seen pass through the street previously, was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast from the direction of Commercial Rd. He looked up at the club, then went round the corner by the Board School........if a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I must have seen him".
                    Finally, she says, "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yds away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered".
                    Does the bold text suggest that Mortimer believed she was at her door until just prior to Deimschitz arrival?

                    Presumably she means "I would have seen him" as opposed to "that must have been the man I did see, but I'm not sure where he came from".
                    Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                      I would presume the Berner St address was noted in his police statement.

                      We have no idea what number he lived at. Coincidently, the man and woman seen by Marshall stood opposite 58 Berner St, then headed off toward Ellen St. Schwartz gave 22 Ellen St as his address.
                      Schwartz gave 22 Ellen St. in his police statement.
                      So, that was his address on Sunday, whether it was the old one, or the new one, we have no idea.

                      Regards, Jon S.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match.

                        I don't see this urging forward.

                        How far was Stride inside the line of the gates? At least the width of one gate plus her body length. It's 18 feet from gates to door. At the point that he supposedly tries to lift the body with his whip handle, while still sitting on his cart, the pony would already be outside the door.
                        Blackwell told us her feet were 9-10 ft from the gateway, which would be about 5 ft from the edge of the open gate, assuming it was flat back to the wall.


                        Regards, Jon S.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                          Considering the discussion about Stride holding cachous in one hand and a piece of paper in the other, that may have contained grapes, is it difficult if not impossible to suppose that BS-man was her killer?



                          Is ...

                          ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously ...

                          equivalent to ...

                          ... the only man whom I had seen at any time ....

                          Do you really think that in that half hour period in which she is on her doorstep for most of it, she would only have seen one man?
                          It's hard to understand how she was still holding something in each hand after being murdered.

                          I think that when see said "previously" she meant "at any time prior to going outside after the murder". She would have seen PC Smith and perhaps others if she had been standing at her door for 30 minutes, which is why I believe the version of the story that says that she was standing at her door for 10 minutes.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                            Have you tried solving this sequence problem without including the story by Schwartz?
                            The police had Parcel-man as their prime suspect as published on 1st Oct. - this was their conclusion devoid of Schwartz's story. By the end of the week they had added two more (BS-man & Pipeman), but then we hear rumors of police doubt surfacing.



                            That's not exactly what Mortimer said though.
                            There may have been people standing around, or coming in & out of the club, but Goldstein was the only one she saw passing through Berner St. - not the only one in the street.

                            First, Mortimer says, "I did not notice anything unusual".
                            Then she says, "I did not observe anyone enter the gates".
                            She also added, "The only person I had seen pass through the street previously, was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast from the direction of Commercial Rd. He looked up at the club, then went round the corner by the Board School........if a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I must have seen him".
                            Finally, she says, "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yds away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered".

                            She doesn't actually say there was no-one in the street, on the contrary she mentions both Goldstein & the 'sweetheart' couple 20 yds away..
                            So, from the above, the street was normal, people coming & going quietly. She did not see Eagle enter the yard as he claimed. She may have seen Lave, because he said he came out into the street at 12:30, to get some fresh air. No-one entered the yard while he was there, which is confirmed by Mortimer.
                            She was there about 10 minutes, and so was Lave, and neither saw anyone enter Dutfields Yard, Mortimer went back inside.
                            Lave then returns to the club, and Eagle about the same time (12:40) also comes back to the club by the yard door.
                            At this point it appears (re. Mortimer) the street was empty.
                            Finally, Mortimer claimed to be stood at her door from roughly 12:45 - 12:55, and in that 10 minutes she saw no-one enter or leave the yard.

                            If the Schwartz incident is eliminated from the sequence of events, that does elevate Parcel Man's status as a suspect.

                            The man with the bag was the only one that she said that she saw pass through the street and she didn't mention seeing anyone else. She was struck by the quiet and deserted nature of the street. Note that her statement about the young couple doesn't say that she saw them when she was at her door, and she talked to them after she went outside, so it sounds like she's relaying what they told her.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

                              If BS Man walked off and Pipeman didn't return, Stride's killer would have had to come along very soon afterward. The likelihood of him just happening to come along right after that seems rather remote to me, so if the Schwartz incident is real, it seems that Stride's killer is almost certainly either BS Man, Pipeman, or someone that was in the area at the time that Schwartz didn't see.
                              Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

                              It's hard to understand how she was still holding something in each hand after being murdered.
                              We seem to be narrowing down the possibilities!

                              I think that when see said "previously" she meant "at any time prior to going outside after the murder". She would have seen PC Smith and perhaps others if she had been standing at her door for 30 minutes, which is why I believe the version of the story that says that she was standing at her door for 10 minutes.
                              Doesn't that version of the story explain why she didn't see Smith?

                              Had Fanny been at her doorstep prior to 12:45, who should she have seen and mentioned seeing, that she didn't? Eagle and Lave didn't mention seeing each other, or anyone else of note. Does that mean they could not have been on the street when they thought they were?
                              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                                First, Mortimer says, "I did not notice anything unusual".
                                Then she says, "I did not observe anyone enter the gates".
                                She also added, "The only person I had seen pass through the street previously, was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast from the direction of Commercial Rd. He looked up at the club, then went round the corner by the Board School........if a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I must have seen him".
                                Finally, she says, "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yds away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered".

                                She doesn't actually say there was no-one in the street, on the contrary she mentions both Goldstein & the 'sweetheart' couple 20 yds away..

                                Finally, Mortimer claimed to be stood at her door from roughly 12:45 - 12:55, and in that 10 minutes she saw no-one enter or leave the yard.
                                Hi Jon,

                                "Was the street quiet at the time?"

                                "Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

                                " I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

                                "No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

                                "Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

                                "No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."


                                How can the two boldened statements be reconciled as from the same woman? Also, one woman comments on the couple while the other adds no comment regarding a couple when asked if she saw them pass down the street.

                                I know that you don't agree, but I am still of the opinion that two women, Mortimer and Mrs Artisan, saw Goldstein in Berner St at different ties headed in opposite directions.

                                Cheers, George
                                Last edited by GBinOz; 10-02-2023, 03:03 AM.
                                Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

                                All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

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