The Stride Murder

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

This an opinion by Tom Wescott:

I suspect that Gilyarovsky is one and the same as 'Gilman' mentioned in some press reports and, as Maria suggested, might be one and the same as Isaac Kozebrodski, who was fond of changing his name (he was known by most clubmen as 'Isaacs').

It is from here:
https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...t-s-take/page4

Cheers, George

Hi George.

I agree Gilyarovski could be Gilleman, but Koz. told us his story and he didn't go upstairs to tell anyone - Tom is wrong, again.

[GBinOz]

Here George.

Would you mind reading this?

"Lewis Diemschitz, steward of the International Working Men's Educational Club, was the next witness. He stated that he left the Club about half past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. He had a costermonger's barrow and pony, and drove into the yard. Both gates were wide open. It was very dark. His pony shied, and he looked down to the ground and saw something lying there, but he could not see what it was. He jumped down and struck a match, but the night being windy he could only see it was some person lying there. He went into the Club and in the front room he found several members, and told them a woman was lying in the yard. He got a candle, and went out at once and discovered a quantity of blood around the body. He did not touch the body, but at once went for the police. He passed several streets without seeing a policeman and returned without one. A man named Isaacs was with him, and they were both shouting for the police. Another man returned with them into the yard, and took hold of the woman's head".
North Eastern Daily Gazette, 3 Oct.

Hi Jon,

Great find. That's the decider, and you were right. Well done.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

I agree Gilyarovski could be Gilleman, but Koz. told us his story and he didn't go upstairs to tell anyone - Tom is wrong, again.

Hi Jon,

Actually, Tom was quoting "mariab". I've been wading through that thread and find the perspective of the Arbeter Fraint to beinteresting. After reading the first few pages I had also formed the opinion that Gilyarovski might be another name for Koze. I noticed that you were a prominent contributor to that thread.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Actually, Tom was quoting "mariab". I've been wading through that thread and find the perspective of the Arbeter Fraint to beinteresting. After reading the first few pages I had also formed the opinion that Gilyarovski might be another name for Koze. I noticed that you were a prominent contributor to that thread.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

It may be a long time ago, there's been so so many threads

It doesn't matter who's theory it was, so long as no evidence exists, it doesn't matter what anyone feels. Unless Koz. or someone else saw Koz. go upstairs, then he didn't, so it isn't him.
What else is there?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Great find. That's the decider, and you were right. Well done.

Cheers, George

So long as were both happy, it is close enough for me, if it is for you then we both win - we have the answer.
Having different points of view is to be preferred, we would solve nothing if everyone agreed.
Opposing opinions doesn't mean opposing sides, in my view, it means attacking the problem from both ends.

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

It may be a long time ago, there's been so so many threads

It doesn't matter who's theory it was, so long as no evidence exists, it doesn't matter what anyone feels. Unless Koz. or someone else saw Koz. go upstairs, then he didn't, so it isn't him.
What else is there?

Hi Jon,

Well, there is this:
At about one oclock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body. His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this. He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body. He immediately struck a match, but that was insufficient and he wasnt able to get a [good] flame, he was nevertheless able by the light of the first match to see that the object was a woman. From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editors office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editors office.
Dont you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard? Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. What, dont you believe me? Gilyarovsky quickly asked: I saw blood. Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: Get up! Why are you waking her? asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. Dont you see that the woman is dead?
[P. 3, col. 2]
In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.

I cant see that there is a doubt that Koze, Isaacs and Gilyarovsky are the same person.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Your scenario works better if Koze left the yard earlier than Diemshitz, on Diemshitz's instruction, and returned to the yard earlier than Diemshitz and Spooner, but that would require a different man to have been with Diemshitz.......Jacobs?

Best regards, George

If "Jacobs" was Krantz (it was his real christian name), you might have the answer.
Eagle's reply to the coroner could have been (as you say) - "Diemshutz & Jacobs went for police"

The Telegraph wrote: "Diemshutz, and another man.."

While the Times wrote: "Jacobs, and another man "

Andrew brought this to our attention, so it looks like you were right, above.

Teamwork!

[Wickerman]

In this long debate, has the name Jacob Rombrow been mentioned?

Sorry Andrew, I missed this.
Good point, I'd forgotten about Krantz, he could have been the other one who ran for a policeman.

[GBinOz]

So long as were both happy, it is close enough for me, if it is for you then we both win - we have the answer.
Having different points of view is to be preferred, we would solve nothing if everyone agreed.
Opposing opinions doesn't mean opposing sides, in my view, it means attacking the problem from both ends.

Hi Jon,
I absolutely agree.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Well, there is this:
At about one oclock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body. His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this. He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body. He immediately struck a match, but that was insufficient and he wasnt able to get a [good] flame, he was nevertheless able by the light of the first match to see that the object was a woman. From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editors office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editors office.
Dont you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard? Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. What, dont you believe me? Gilyarovsky quickly asked: I saw blood. Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: Get up! Why are you waking her? asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. Dont you see that the woman is dead?
[P. 3, col. 2]
In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.

I cant see that there is a doubt that Koze, Isaacs and Gilyarovsky are the same person.

Cheers, George

What about Jacobs?

[Wickerman]

George, let me just draw your attention to something.
First, Gilyarovsky went down to the print shop - Kozebrodski says nothing about that.
Second, Gilyarovski makes no mention of being with Diemshutz when he saw the body - Kozebrodski was with Diem. when he first saw the body.
Third, is the scenario below...

... Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: Get up! Why are you waking her? asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. Dont you see that the woman is dead?
[P. 3, col. 2]
In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.[/COLOR][/I]

You will see in the accounts of 1 Oct. that Diemshutz had left before Eagle came down to see the body.
Koz. could have left before Diemshutz, or at the latest with him. Either way this Gilyarovsky is still beside Eagle when Eagle said he heard the voice of Diemshutz calling for police.

There isn't anything here to match Gilyarovsky with Kozebrodski, plus the article makes no mention of Jacobs. We have a problem in not knowing how many men ran for police, there could have been several more than the three or four we have been occupied with, Gilyarovsky is another one like Jacobs, one of the many others who joined in.

[GBinOz]

In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.

I cant see that there is a doubt that Koze, Isaacs and Gilyarovsky are the same person.

Cheers, George

What about Jacobs?

Not sure I understand the question, but if you are questioning whether Gilyarovsky was Jacobs, we know that Eagle and Koze found the "pair of peacekeepers", so Gilyarovsky must have been Koze. If you are questioning Jacobs involvement, if any, then ....yet to be determined.....could be just a misprint.

Cheers, George

[New Waterloo]

I think Michael Kidney plays quite a big part in all of this. He is a man who drinks heavily, (yes there are many of them) is aggressive and possessive. His 'partner' has been murdered but still manages to be comical whilst giving evidence at the inquest. He is difficult with the Chair of the Inquest. He lies that they parted on good terms and Stride has been receiving letters from the brother of a previous employer

"Do you know whether she had picked up with any one? - I have seen the address of the brother of the gentleman with whom she lived as a servant, somewhere near Hyde Park, but I cannot find it now."

His wording is a give away. "but I cannot find it now" means exactly that. He has looked for it recently. Is this person Strides date for the night?

Then on Sunday the day of the murder before the identity of Stride is estab he goes to Flower and Dean Street and speaks with Elizabeth Tanner. We do not know what is said but none the less this is significant. Something has caused him to go there. Maybe he has heard that it was Stride who was murdered. How would that be. Stride had no identification on her person and as far as I am aware nobody involved that night knew who she was (or did they)

Just seems he a bit quick off the mark. I believe on the first day of the inquest they were still struggling with her identity. How is he able to go into Leman Street police station and talk about Stride being murdered. If he went into the police station before he had looked at the body then how could he be certain it was her yet he seemed so certain.

I am not convinced Kidney killed Stride but I do believe he was rooting about the area looking for her. Drunk and not happy. I think he is a good candidate for BSM.

NW

[GBinOz]

If "Jacobs" was Krantz (it was his real christian name), you might have the answer.
Eagle's reply to the coroner could have been (as you say) - "Diemshutz & Jacobs went for police"

The Telegraph wrote: "Diemshutz, and another man.."

While the Times wrote: "Jacobs, and another man "

Andrew brought this to our attention, so it looks like you were right, above.

Teamwork!

Hi Jon,

We seem to have some simultaneous posts, and I missed this one.

If Jacobs was Krantz, then there is a problem with the North Eastern Daily Gazette article that said it was Isaacs that was with Diemshitz. There were only two men seen by Spooner. And here am I thinking that we had this one solved.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

If "Jacobs" was Krantz (it was his real christian name), you might have the answer.
Eagle's reply to the coroner could have been (as you say) - "Diemshutz & Jacobs went for police"

The Telegraph wrote: "Diemshutz, and another man.."

While the Times wrote: "Jacobs, and another man "

Andrew brought this to our attention, so it looks like you were right, above.

Teamwork!

Hi Jon,

I actually raised this possibility back in post #957, but I'm not quite seeing how this fits with the North Eastern Daily Gazette article, unless you are meaning that Diemshitz was with Koze (Isaacs) and Jacobs left with some one else, yet to be named?

Cheers, George