The Stride Murder

[The Rookie Detective]

The steward's wife said: It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard.

Sounds to me like she was referring to Eagle. Assuming the above to be true, I would suggest having a look at the men who were in the editor's office at the time of the discovery - Eagle and Yaffa. We know Eagle, but who was Yaffa?

Yaffa?...

That's rather odd because Yaffa is most certainly a woman's name.

"Yaffa" is Yiddish for "Beautiful"


Was Yaffa Eagle's girlfriend, whom he said he walked home before returning around 12.40am?


Yaffa is a woman for sure. If not, then it would be the equivalent of calling a man "Bella"


And so, who was Yaffa?



Interesting


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

This "sweetheart" couple were stood at the corner before & after the murder - they never moved.

Packer described Stride buying grapes, then crossing over opposite to the shop, but that is not the corner. They then came back and stood in front of the club.

Packers press statement:
(Stride & Parcel-man) They then crossed the road and stood on the pavement almost directly opposite to the shop for a long time more than half an hour. It will be remembered that the night was very wet, and Packer naturally noticed the peculiarity of the couple's standing so long in the rain. He observed to his wife, "What fools those people are to be standing in the rain like that."corner of
At last the couple moved from their position, and Packer saw them cross the road again and come over to the club, standing for a moment in front of it as though listening to the music inside. Then he lost sight of them. It was then ten or fifteen minutes past twelve o'clock, Packer, who was about to close his shop, noting the time by the fact that the public houses had been closed.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881004.html

Compared that, to the "sweetheart" couple, on the corner, who never moved.

Great post, but Packer does state they stood "ALMOST" opposite him at no.44. Looking at that brilliant map you posted, almost opposite would be either the corner of the street where the "Sweetheart couple were already standing, or directly opposite the murder site.

There were 20 yards from the gateway to the corner, and Packer's window was virtually halfway between the gateway and the corner of the street. i.e. 10 yards from the gateway and 10 yards from the corner of the street....and because he said they stood ALMOST opposite, they would have needed to have stood either to the left or to the right of the space directly opposite him, ergo, within 10 yards of the sweetheart couple or within 10 yards of the murder site.

Bearing in mind that Packer's statement is likely to be false, unless we can trust the input of Le Grand who was a convicted blackmailer.

However, every lie does have an element of truth in order for it to be perceived as true in the first place.

I believe that the couple Packer spoke of were real and perhaps even the idea he sold grapes to them...but i think his story is embellished and he was told by Le Grand to try and put emphasis on this couple as a means of misdirection.

It was rainy, and windy and I still can't believe that a couple would stand ALMOST opposite him across the road for over half an hour...especially if another separate "sweetheart" couple were standing on the corner between 5 to 20 yards away.

It would mean there were 2 couples both standing ALMOST opposite Packer, one on the corner of the street and the other directly opposite the yard where Stride was murdered.

I believe that the evidence suggests there was only 1 couple standing on the corner of Berner Street and none opposite the yard on the same side as the board school?


James Brown only saw 1 couple and so did Mortimer.

In other words, ALMOST opposite Packer IS the corner of the street...and if he meant opposite the yard, then we have 2 couples and not just the Sweetheart couple.



The couple who were there BEFORE and AFTER the murder didn't see or hear anything, which I can understand if they were embracing...but if they were there on the corner, then how come they never saw or heard the assault on Stride seen by Schwartz?


The behaviors of the couples may have varied depending on the subjective perspective of the observer.

The couple themselves may have been embracing and missed the murder BUT there's no way they would have missed the incident that Schwartz describes.


RD

[Wickerman]

Great post, but Packer does state they stood "ALMOST" opposite him at no.44. Looking at that brilliant map you posted, almost opposite would be either the corner of the street where the "Sweetheart couple were already standing, or directly opposite the murder site.

Agreed, "almost opposite the shop", could be either nearer the corner, or nearer that club.
A clue to which is given in their next movement. Packer says they crossed the road to stand in front of the club.
Which clarifies which way "opposite" was, it was north of his shop - being directly opposite the club.

It would mean there were 2 couples both standing ALMOST opposite Packer, one on the corner of the street and the other directly opposite the yard where Stride was murdered.

Yes, that is how I see it.

James Brown only saw 1 couple and so did Mortimer.

Brown saw the couple nearest him, as he crossed diagonally from the southern half of Berner St. to Fairclough, on the east side.

The couple who were there BEFORE and AFTER the murder didn't see or hear anything, which I can understand if they were embracing...but if they were there on the corner, then how come they never saw or heard the assault on Stride seen by Schwartz?

Possibly, because Stride was not assaulted in the gateway.
Neither did the sweetheart couple say a Jew ran past them. They must have moved on by 1:00 am, as they would also have seen the cart & Goldstein come by them.

[FISHY1118]

Strictly speaking, we don't have a quote of what Schwartz actually said, but I see you're not happy with me making fun of dear Israel, so let's consider that quote/snippet of report.

... [on] turning into Berner Street from Commercial Road, and having gotten as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

How far down Berner St had Schwartz got when he saw a man stop and speak to a woman?

The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe.

"On crossing to the opposite side of the street" implies that Schwartz was on what side of the street when the assault occurred - club or school side?

Given the above, what can we say about Schwartz's proximity to Stride when the assault occurred?

Nothing .

[FISHY1118]

We still see it being assumed by some that - discrepancy = lies. And we see it far too often. It’s almost second nature in some quarters. As Wick says, people make mistakes; especially in unusual and stressful circumstances. We also have language interpretations to consider plus the vagaries of various Press reports. This isn’t a spy thriller. It’s a simple case of murder where we don’t know the perpetrator. As I’ve said before, how often do we see a murder in the street and then find out there was some kind of conspiracy going on with a planted witness? What really is the likelihood? About as likely as someone asking Donald Trump onto their quiz team I’d say.

If it was a quiz team team I'd say as likely someone asking Joe Biden rather than Trump. After all, a "Quiz Team".?? Really.

Think about that just for a second.

Apologies all for off topic post, but we really should keep Trump bashing ( or Biden for that matter) off a jtr forum . There quite enough of that on social media to quench ones thirst.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

This club had been a regular house.

On the ground floor level, there was a front door and a front room (dining-room), at the back of the front room was a kitchen.
There seems to have been a passage from the front door towards the back along the sidewall adjoining the yard.
Which means there must have been two doors in the passage, the first into the front room, the second into the kitchen.
Directly facing the internal kitchen door is the side door to the yard.
Between the two internal doors was a staircase that led upstairs.
Behind the kitchen, totally walled off, was the printing office, divided into two rooms.

The club premises ran back a long way into the yard. The front room on the ground floor of the club was occupied as a dining-room. At the middle of the passage there was a staircase leading to the first floor. At the back of the dining-room was a kitchen. In this room there was a small window over the door which faced the one leading into the yard. The remainder of the passage lead into the yard. Over the door in the passage was a small window, through which daylight came. At the back of the kitchen, but in no way connected with it, was a printing office. This office consisted of two rooms. The one adjoining the kitchen was used as a composing-room and the other one was for the editor.


I'm having trouble seeing how "The remainder of the passage lead into the yard", if the printing office is built across the back wall of the house. There is no back door into the yard.

Anyway, Wess told the inquest:
"Before leaving the club he had occasion to go to the printing office to put some literature there, and he went into the yard by the passage door, thence to the printing office. He then returned to the club by the same way."

Isn't that the side door, from the internal passage to the yard?

I'm really not sure, but I take 'yard' in "The passage leads from the front room to the yard", to mean the back yard. That is, the passage ran the full length of the building, with a door at both ends. I could be wrong, but Wess also said "In the middle of the passage there is a staircase leading to the first floor ...". Didn't that staircase mark the divide between dining room and kitchen?

Also, if Wess got to the printing office via a side/passageway door, then how could he not look at the gates area, when re-entering? That would have been right in front of him. So, for now I'm seeing three doors in total.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If it was a quiz team team I'd say as likely someone asking Joe Biden rather than Trump. After all, a "Quiz Team".?? Really.

Think about that just for a second.

Apologies all for off topic post, but we really should keep Trump bashing ( or Biden for that matter) off a jtr forum . There quite enough of that on social media to quench ones thirst.

Didn’t realise you had such a high regard for Trump’s intelligence.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why do you presume you are better placed to judge Schwartz than the man who questioned him?

Steve

As Abberline seems to have second-guessed Schwartz on who 'Lipski' was called to, perhaps we should be asking a similar question of him?

From the very start, people have found it necessary to modify Schwartz's story to make sense of it. An obvious red flag.

[Lewis C]

He "said" it yes, but others also claim to be stood at that same spot, at that time.

"A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises."
Daily News, 1 Oct.

Mortimer:
"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound".
Evening News, 1 Oct.

Distance, especially at night is hard to judge.
Dutfields gateway to the corner at the Board School is actually 60 ft. (20 yds)
Two reports there mention a young girl with her sweetheart standing on the corner of Berner & Fairclough, right about the time James Brown passes by.

James Brown appears to be mistaken.

My only point in my previous comment was that it cannot be accurately said that Schwartz is the only person who claimed to see Stride alive at this time, because Brown claimed this too. Whether or not one is of the opinion that Brown was right (or Schwartz for that matter) is another matter. But do note that the quote from Mortimer is 2nd hand info; she's relaying her recollection of her conversation with the couple. Using her statement also requires that we assume that Mortimer knew when Stride was murdered.

[FISHY1118]

Didn’t realise you had such a high regard for Trump’s intelligence.

As apposed to Biden intelligence? ,yer in a QUiz debate id pick trump.

But lets not talk politics on this thread hey. .

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Jon!

Here some press reports of 1&2 October 1888 I´ve found so far. I don´t see anything in them that bridges the gap. I will take a look at the other days.

One arrest seems to have been more significant than the others.

Two men are at present detained at Leman-street Police-station in connection with the Commercial-road murder. One was arrested late last night, and the other this morning. They are now waiting for the arrival of detectives from Scotland-yard for identification.

At 3:15 on Monday morning a third man was arrested and likewise taken to Leman-street police station. He was also released in the course of the day.

How would the Scotland Yard detectives have identified these men? Was the man arrested at 3:15, found on the street or in bed? If the later then was it an arrest based on identification, or something else?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yaffa?...

That's rather odd because Yaffa is most certainly a woman's name.

"Yaffa" is Yiddish for "Beautiful"


Was Yaffa Eagle's girlfriend, whom he said he walked home before returning around 12.40am?


Yaffa is a woman for sure. If not, then it would be the equivalent of calling a man "Bella"


And so, who was Yaffa?



Interesting


RD

Another woman in the picture? That's interesting, RD.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As apposed to Biden intelligence? ,yer in a QUiz debate id pick trump.

But lets not talk politics on this thread hey. .

Trump is a vegetable.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Nothing .

Schwartz believers cannot call on the support of Scotland Yard, for their belief in the story, and at the same time find it necessary to significantly modify the story, or in this case, ignore its implications. If people change the story to make it sound more realistic, then the police report becomes just another interpretation, and so the police's attitude to Schwartz is therefore of little or no relevance.

[Wickerman]

My only point in my previous comment was that it cannot be accurately said that Schwartz is the only person who claimed to see Stride alive at this time, because Brown claimed this too. Whether or not one is of the opinion that Brown was right (or Schwartz for that matter) is another matter. But do note that the quote from Mortimer is 2nd hand info; she's relaying her recollection of her conversation with the couple. Using her statement also requires that we assume that Mortimer knew when Stride was murdered.

Ok, but Brown did not say the woman had a flower on her jacket, so apart from him 'felling sure' what other justification is there for assuming he saw Stride?
I just think he saw someone else, and as the press interviewed this 'sweetheart' couple, their presence confirmed by Mortimer, then it seems assured to me Brown was just mistaken.
As an aside, you'll notice he heard the cries of "murder" about 15 minutes later (later than 12;45, so nearer 1:00am), as Diemschutz & Kozebrodski run for help.