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  • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post

    2 October 1888 (Scotsman?):

    "In the course of conversation the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt, been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen - or, at least, a man whom some persons regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough Street, which runs across Berner Street, close to the club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence Street, Brunswick Street and Christian Street, and on the left by Batty Street and Grove Street, the two latter running up into Commercial Road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body".

    Star, 1 October 1888:

    "The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. THOSE who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it".

    "Some persons" & "Those who saw it" these phrases might confirm that both of the men (Schwartz and Pipeman) were in Berner Street.
    The term "those" certainly implies more than one witness to the assault on Stride.

    and "Some PERSONS" also strengthens that view.

    The 2nd October report is interesting because it implies that the supposed MURDERER was then CHASED EAST along Fairclough street and then NORTH up into Commercial Road.
    This is potentially significant because WHY would a man CHASE another man after witnessing a common domestic assault/disagreement between a wife and her abusive husband? A person may step in and say "That's enough, leave her alone!" or words to that effect...BUT to CHASE another man would suggest that a man was seen killing Stride and then was chased.

    Now perhaps the "chaser" was part of the vigilance committee and chased the perpetrator as a matter of perceived civil duty.

    IF a man was indeed seen chasing another man, who then escaped into Commercial Road, then it's likely that the route taken was north up Batty S

    That would imply that the chase started from the club and the killer had to flee south from the club, then turn immediately EAST into Fairclough St and then NORTH up Batty Street and would indicate that the killer couldn't run NORTH from the club and directly up BERNER St because the chaser was standing North of the murder site, witnessed it and then chased the killer.

    So. here's the scenario that I think works...

    Prior to Schwartz and BS man appearing, Pipeman has been standing with Stride and has been trying to kiss her. She rejects his efforts but he manages to steal a kiss...but he's a heavy smoker and after realizing he won't get any more than a kiss and upon hearing another man approaching, he walks across the road towards the board school, but the rain has put out his cigarette and so he goes to light up. At the same time Stride pulls out a bag of Cachous because Pipemans breath was bad...but just as she does, BS Man has seen the man having kissed Stride and makes a choice to approach Stride...Schwartz is as well walking south down Berner Street and just a few yards behind BS man, who having seen Stride having kissed another man, attacks her..but trying to take her across the road to have it out with Pipeman, but because she resists, he instead throws her to the ground. Schwartz is only a matter of yards behind BS Man when he assaults Stride. On the other side of the road, Pipeman has just lit up his pipe having walked away from Stride, but at the point he is lighting up, he is focusing on the pipe/cigarette and he looks up just at the point that Schwartz is standing by the club and is crossing the road, ergo, Pipeman doesn't see the assault itself. As Schwartz crosses the road, BS man realizes that Pipeman is now wondering what's happened and seeing that he's a member of the vigilance committee, he steps into action...BUT he mistakenly thinks that Schwartz is the offender because BS Man improvises and shouts "Lipski" to imply that Schwartz is the real offender and so he follows Schwartz. In the meantime, Stride is dragged and her face pushed into the mud (go with it for now) and then he bends down and tells her she shouldn't have left him and he cuts her throat. In the meantime, Pipeman has had second thoughts, because he gives up following Schwartz who has run south and then feels that he has gone for the wrong man. He walks back northwards just as BS man has stepped out of the shadows from killing Stride...Pipeman sees Bs Man as BS man goes to walk north, but he sees a cart approaching down Berner St from the north and so he goes to walk East along Fairclough Street when he sees Pipeman and then the chase is on, Pipeman blows his custom vigilance committee whistle and then chases BS Man along Fairclough Street and then North up Batty Street. At the same time the cart pulls into the yard and Stride is discovered; her throat having been cut just a minute or so beforehand.
    Pipeman loses BS Man and then goes to retrace his steps back to the scene. He then realizes that he may have been seen with Stride and so decides to not return back to the scene...

    Subsequently, Pipeman reports his statement to other members of the vigilance committee which includes Le Grand. When Pipeman says he had been standing with Stride shortly before another man assaulted Stride, Le Grand steps in to threaten certain witnesses, including Packer who he blackmails to create a story of a man seen standing there in the rain and having bought grapes to try and confuse the investigation so as not to implicate the vigilance committee.

    When Eddowes is then murdered on the same night, it acts as a catalyst for the likes of Le Grand to pedal the ripper story further and take the heat away from his own criminal activities by appearing to be the man who found the key witness in Packer, who in reality was scared for his own life and that of his family and so had no choice but to obey Le Grand.

    That would then mean that Michael Kidney murdered Stride, having followed Pipeman and Stride along Berner Street and having seen Stride kiss Pipeman, he lost his temper and acted impulsively by killing Stride



    Of course, this is all hypothesis and conjecture...but I think it's good to think outside the box sometimes...


    Thoughts?


    RD







    "Great minds, don't think alike"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
      Does this not suggest that Stride had gone with her killer into the yard towards the side of the club and she was attacked and murdered in the darkness of the yard while all the other witnesses were standing in Berner Street? including the couple on the corner, Mrs Mortimer etc...

      The killer would have escaped west through the yard, either through the stables or one of the cigar factories or perhaps he was a resident in one of the flats?

      Is there a scenario where the killer doesn't exit via Berner Street?

      RD
      Sounds reasonable to me.
      We don't know about whether you could get out of the yard at the far western end.
      He wouldn't be the first criminal to scale a fence, wall or whatever.

      Packer says they stood in front of the club after he served them, then they crossed over to the Board School side standing there for about 30 mins.
      So he didn't see the two leave, they were still there as he shut up shop at 12:30, according to the police summary.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

        Hi RD,

        I agree that the actual murder took place in the dark where the body was found, but no-one but Schwartz and Pipeman reported seeing the dispute in the gateway.

        The killer could have escaped in the ways that you describe, but I would think that he concealed himself in the toilet recess and slipped away when Diemshitz went into the club or mingled with crowd of spectators after and slipped away in the crowd.

        Cheers, George
        Thats right, if this scenario is correct there was no assault in the gateway, no pipeman, no BS-man.
        If Schwartz's story happened at all, it involved a different woman, in a different street. I don't think he was lying, he was only mistaken as to where he was and who he saw assaulted.
        If we leave out Schwartz's story, the events might have unfolded as RD was suggesting.
        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post
          Hi Jon!

          2 October 1888 (Scotsman?):

          "In the course of conversation the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt, been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen - or, at least, a man whom some persons regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough Street, which runs across Berner Street, close to the club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence Street, Brunswick Street and Christian Street, and on the left by Batty Street and Grove Street, the two latter running up into Commercial Road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body".

          "The secratary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gace chase" could imply that the identity of that man (Pipeman?) was known.

          Star, 1 October 1888:

          "The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it".

          "Some persons" & "Those who saw it" these phrases might confirm that both of the men (Schwartz and Pipeman) were in Berner Street.

          Schwartz claimed he was followed by the man with the pipe, "Pipeman" may have claimed he had chased BS Man. In the end it is possible that the police did believe Schwartz more than Pipeman (did doubts remain?).

          Of course, no official police report did mention the name of the man with the pipe, only his description is stated, "he is not suspected". But is this true?

          Swanson:

          "The use of "Lipski" increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew"

          Abberline:

          "Schwartz has a strong Jewish appearance..."

          "He -Pipeman- may have been alarmed the same as himself (Schwartz) and ran away"... by BS Manīs "Lipski"?

          Was "Pipeman" of Jewish appearance but not that strong?

          Iīm wondering if "Pipeman" could have been a suspect, not metioned with his name in official reports... for tactical reasons.

          Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts about Batty Street.

          I think it is quite possible that the police did not know what really happened in Berner Street for a long time afterwards.

          Karsten.
          Hi Karsten.

          The Scotsman story, which was in the Echo the day before, is a story told by the club secretary - we think William Wess.
          As we know he left the club about 12:15 that night, then we know he saw nothing himself. This is what he was told by someone. So a second or third-hand story at best. Likely with errors.
          First point, he says it happened at a quarter-to-one because that is the time his source (whoever it was) believed it happened, not because that was a fact.
          There were, we are told, approx. 20 or so people in the yard, so any one of them could be his source. Or, Wess may have put the story together from what several people told him.
          We do have statements from a few at the scene who did think the murder happened at 12:45, so perhaps we should start with them?

          After all is said and done, the details of the story, in my view, better fit what Diemshutz & Kozebrodski say. That they went running eastward looking for a policeman, however the fact they are both club members appears to conflict with the story. But, Kozebrodski did not return to the yard with Diemshutz, they picked up Spooner, who was not a club member, and it was Diemshutz with Spooner who came back to the yard.
          It was naturally assumed the two men who returned to the yard are the same as the two who left, but they were not.
          Whoever told Wess what happened did not know who Spooner was, because he was not a member.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

            What would be the point of fitting the eastern end of the yard with a lockable barrier and incorporated doorway, if anyone at all could go in and out of the yard at the western end?

            M.
            We still build fences around our yards, but criminals will hop fences or walls - this is no different.
            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

              Thats right, if this scenario is correct there was no assault in the gateway, no pipeman, no BS-man.
              If Schwartz's story happened at all, it involved a different woman, in a different street. I don't think he was lying, he was only mistaken as to where he was and who he saw assaulted.
              If we leave out Schwartz's story, the events might have unfolded as RD was suggesting.
              I too see Schwartz as dodgy as hell; but don't we still have the curiosity that is Stride's body being bruised in ways that suggest an assault of pretty much the type Schwartz was describing?

              M.

              Last edited by Mark J D; 09-10-2023, 02:23 PM.

              Comment


              • I had not bothered to look at this before, but here is a close-up of the end of the Berner St. block.
                Number 40 on the lower right side is the Club.
                The third building from the front is a brown colour, we can read it says "open 1st", which means the structure is open on the first floor level.
                These maps are drawn by a Canadian who used American terminology - 1st floor is the ground floor in UK.

                We can also see there is an access on the north side of this building that leads into number 670, above this is an oblong yard that runs behind nos. 18, 20, 22, 24 Batty's gdns.
                There is a passage between nos. 16 & 18 which leads into Batty's Gardens, if you turn left then you are out into Backchurch Lane, or turn right you can exit through a passage back into Berner Street.



                There are other possibilities of escape too.
                Last edited by Wickerman; 09-10-2023, 02:30 PM.
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • This is what I am trying to describe - red line.

                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                    I had not bothered to look at this before, but here is a close-up of the end of the Berner St. block.
                    Number 40 on the lower right side is the Club.
                    The third building from the front is a brown colour, we can read it says "open 1st", which means the structure is open on the first floor level.
                    These maps are drawn by a Canadian who used American terminology - 1st floor is the ground floor in UK.

                    We can also see there is an access on the north side of this building that leads into number 670, above this is an oblong yard that runs behind nos. 18, 20, 22, 24 Batty's gdns.
                    There is a passage between nos. 16 & 18 which leads into Batty's Gardens, if you turn left then you are out into Backchurch Lane, or turn right you can exit through a passage back into Berner Street.



                    There are other possibilities of escape too.

                    Surely 'open 1st' here means the open space we can see one floor up at the far end?


                    Click image for larger version  Name:	15110.jpg Views:	0 Size:	70.8 KB ID:	818561


                    Incidentally, the huge amount of rebuilding that went on in these areas during this era means that People Who Stare At Goads really should give the date of the one they're using. The one I've seen from 1899 shows a stairway (in this image wrongly painted on the right) that isn't in the Goad you include.

                    M.
                    Last edited by Mark J D; 09-10-2023, 02:52 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                      I had not bothered to look at this before, but here is a close-up of the end of the Berner St. block.
                      Number 40 on the lower right side is the Club.
                      The third building from the front is a brown colour, we can read it says "open 1st", which means the structure is open on the first floor level.
                      These maps are drawn by a Canadian who used American terminology - 1st floor is the ground floor in UK.

                      We can also see there is an access on the north side of this building that leads into number 670, above this is an oblong yard that runs behind nos. 18, 20, 22, 24 Batty's gdns.
                      There is a passage between nos. 16 & 18 which leads into Batty's Gardens, if you turn left then you are out into Backchurch Lane, or turn right you can exit through a passage back into Berner Street.



                      There are other possibilities of escape too.
                      Could Leon Goldstein have murdered Stride but then knowing the geography of the area, he then escaped through the north west side of the yard and through the alleyway and then out into Batty Gardens and then gone back into Berner Street between 30 and 32 Berner Street, to then deliberately make a noise as he walked south past Mrs Mortimer, so that it would fit an alibi of him having been seen walking past in a hurry? That way he could be SEEN as having walked down Berner Street and instead of leaving the scene, he goes back because it would raise no suspicion and fit with his story.

                      Do the timings fit?

                      It would rule out the killer being JTR of course, because there's then no time for the double event.


                      Thoughts on Goldstein having murdered Stride and then going back around the block so that he could deliberately be seen by the likes of Mrs Mortimer?



                      RD



                      "Great minds, don't think alike"

                      Comment


                      • ...and perhaps then Goldstein deliberately looks Up at the Club as he walks past, to make it appear to any other witnesses that Stride isn't there in the darkness, when in fact she already is because he had killed her minutes before...but he couldn't be seen EXITING FROM the yard and so had to walk around via Batty Gardens and go back past Mortimer and the Club.
                        By him looking UP, it's a deliberate way of diverting anyone seeing him looking DOWN and then implying there's someone on the ground. His alibi is then watertight because of Mortimer.

                        It's probably completely wrong but may explain his apparent urgency when walking down Berner Street past Mrs Mortimer.


                        RD



                        "Great minds, don't think alike"

                        Comment


                        • Isn’t it possible/probable that after Goldstein was interviewed by the police they would send someone round to Spectacle Alley to check his story?
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post


                            Incidentally, the huge amount of rebuilding that went on in these areas during this era means that People Who Stare At Goads really should give the date of the one they're using. The one I've seen from 1899 shows a stairway (in this image wrongly painted on the right) that isn't in the Goad you include.

                            M.
                            Ideally yes, many of these maps do not have a date written on them. The identification of this map is Vol. XI, sheet 338~r_1, the Key sheet for Vol. XI is dated 1890, which maybe why the wiki page to which this map was uploaded to also says 1890. However, there are maps also identified as part of Vol. XI that are dated on the map as 1899. So, it isn't true to say all Vol. XI maps are the same as the key.
                            But, for arguments sake, lets say this map sheet 338~r_1 is 1890. It still does not reflect what might be recorded in local sketches from 1888, it can only be used as a general guide.
                            I thought most people knew that.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

                              Surely 'open 1st' here means the open space we can see one floor up at the far end?


                              There is no reference to 'Ground' on any Goad Maps of this period.
                              1st = Ground
                              2nd = 1 floor up.
                              3rd = 2 floors up. etc.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

                                The one I've seen from 1899 shows a stairway (in this image wrongly painted on the right) that isn't in the Goad you include.

                                M.
                                This is the one from 1899, to which you refer.

                                Regards, Jon S.

                                Comment

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