The Stride Murder

[GBinOz]

I believe you know the answer George, because her plans for the night concern that club or one of its meeting attendees. She is there because she made plans to be there. Why? My guess is work, or a date.

Hi Michael,

I think that she had already had her date with Parcelman since 11:00. But she may have said goodnight to him and been standing waiting for the time to start a clean up of the club premises.

Cheers, George

[c.d.]

So why did Schwartz walk away, and Pipeman start running? Should it not be the other way around?



According to the Star, the police did not release "the Hungarians" name and address, yet they managed to find him, regardless.

I don't know. Perhaps Pipeman said to himself hey this is a rough looking drunk man in a dispute with his woman. If he picked up on Lipski or just a threatening gesture to Schwartz he might have decided he might turn on me next.

I don't know but I don't see how finding the Hungarian relates to finding the B.S. man and the Pipeman. Can we say definitively that someone with the police didn't leak it?

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I suppose Im not surprised Fish has more posts. Its not just me that disagrees with most of what you post, you might want to revisit some of those so you dont keep making the same mistakes over and over. And your sense of entitlement to have names of who I converse with is misplaced.

Ive posted names, times and statements that are on record and have second hand verification, youve posted insults and your backing of accounts that have no second hand verification at all.

I haven’t insulted you. You’ve called me a ‘dolt,’ a ‘sociopath,’ and you’ve stopped so low as to accuse me of having ‘learning difficulties.’ Those are insults. My saying that your theory is hopeless is not an insult. It’s a fact.

Your theory is drivel. A complete joke and an embarrassment to the subject and the people that ‘agree with you’ are figments of your imagination.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So, for a discovery time of 1.00 we have….

For…

Diemschitz.
Eagle.
Gilleman.
Mrs Diemschitz,
Mila, the servant.
Julius Minsky.
PC Lamb, who in all reports but one he simply estimates ‘around 1.00.’ (And 1.05 or 1.06 is around 1.00 for anyone that speaks English.)
Fanny Mortimer who hears a horse and cart passing just at the time that Diemschutz said that he returned.

Against….

Kozebrodski - we are being asked to believe that a plot was initiated and yet Diemschitz didn’t bother explaining this to Kosebrodski at any point either in the yard or when they went looking for a Constable. Yeah right. Back on planet Earth Kozebrodski was clearly wrong on his time estimation.

Hoschberg - ditto. Clearly mistaken.

Spooner - Said that he got to the yard at 12.35 which is way out and doesn’t even line up with Kozebrodski and Hoschberg! He also said that he arrived 5 minutes before Lamb got there which ties up with the 1.00 discovery time.

So that’s 8½ vs 2½ - We can’t give Spooner a full point due to his Lamb comment.

Not really close is it…..but on Fantasy Island where all dreams can come true it is…..selective quoting is considered a good thing there…..all clocks are perfect over there….bizarre stories are believed over there…..they’re all ‘in on it’ over there.

Its years past time we just gave up on this crap. People looking in will just wonder “why do they even bother wasting time arguing against obvious claptrap?”

Its a 20+ year long exercise in time wasting and a refusal to admit to being wrong when when he’s been told this by just about everyone.

[Wickerman]

Wess: Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there, and on returning to the yard I observed that the double door at the entrance was open.

Who did he leave the literature for?

For a morning pick-up/delivery would be the normal expectation.
Wess doesn't even say if it was a few leaflets or a big package of newspapers.
It may have been reference material for Krantz to quote from for an upcoming article they are about to publish.
The possibilities are numerous.
One of thee least likely possibilities is that someone is expected to come by in 30 minutes, especially as this is after-hours so the office is essentially closed, but the club is still open - just leave it there.

At about 12:40, a man is seen near the club with Liz, holding a parcel wrapped in newspaper that would be about the right size for a stack of Workers' Friend's.

Right size?
Says who?

The man was not coming from the printing office, the man was just standing out in the street, he could have come from anywhere.
Don't you see a massive degree of wishful thinking here?

The man was with Stride, he was carrying a parcel, the time was around 12:30-35.
Packer shut his shop up at 12:30, his last customer was Stride with a man who bought something that Packer put in a package.
The two circumstances match perfectly with respect to the people involved, the timing & the article the man was carrying.
There's no wishful thinking here, we are just using statements that exist today, we don't have to create a conspiracy, just read the material for what it says.
Keep it simple...

Perhaps the problem here is that this a better theory than one involving grapes and Packer.

Better?, in what way?
You prefer to jump through hoops & over hurdles to invent a scenario?
How could that conceivably be viewed as 'better'?

[Wickerman]

If you're reasonably sure Scotland Yard were not satisfied with Schwartz's story, do you suppose they thought he was lying, or part of some club-house conspiracy?

I don't follow this need to speculate.
Perhaps it's more due to me spending the most of my adult life in an engineering dept.

In this case we ask why was Schwartz not called to the inquest, well we have already seen that the statement he gave police does not add anything to the identity of the victim.
Neither does his statement change how she died, nor where she died, so the coroner has no need of his statement, but also it seems Swanson was waiting for the police report of the investigation into his statement.
We don't need to ask why....

My question in return to you is, why do you feel the need to ask questions we cannot possibly answer?
What purpose does it serve?

[Michael W Richards]

Your insistence that all the witnesses that claimed an earlier discovery......Issac K, Heschberg, Spooner and Lamb by virtue of the fact that he is at the gates before Louis says he arrived there, and was unseen by Fanny Mortimer at her door until 1am..were all wrong so that Louis can be believed is...well, I dont know what it is. Revisionist to say the least.


Diemschitz.- Unseen arrival, did not arrive when he said he did, and has economic reasons to downplay any negligence/guilt by club or attendees. Biased.
Eagle.-Could not be sure Liz wasnt already lying there at 12:40, and does not see Lave who also said he was there as well. Receives his money from club for speaking there. Biased
Gilleman.-Does not confirm a time of 1am.
Mrs Diemschitz,-Biased.
Mila, the servant-Biased.
Julius Minsky.-Biased
PC Lamb, who in all reports but one he simply estimates ‘around 1.00.’ (And 1.05 or 1.06 is around 1.00 for anyone that speaks English.)
Fanny Mortimer who hears a horse and cart passing just at the time that Diemschutz said that he returned.-PC Lamb is the only witness that had to track his time accurately, and said he saw men running "just before 1am" That would indicate they went for help before Louis says he arrived and discovered the body. What Fanny heard isnt Louis, its what she thinks was a cart and horse. She didnt see what made the sound, and the cart and horse would be taken away to store in George Yard.

Kozebrodski - we are being asked to believe that a plot was initiated and yet Diemschitz didn’t bother explaining this to Kosebrodski at any point either in the yard or when they went looking for a Constable. Yeah right. Back on planet Earth Kozebrodski was clearly wrong on his time estimation. Told reporters that he was sent out by Louis or some other member at 12:40. Your assessment of how good a damage control story would work without everyone being informed is your opinion, why they chose to do this isnt related to the facts here.

Hoschberg - ditto. Clearly mistaken.-Once again, your opinion and contrary to what he stated. Any Proof he was mistaken? Oh right, your opinion.

Spooner - Said that he got to the yard at 12.35 which is way out and doesn’t even line up with Kozebrodski and Hoschberg! He also said that he arrived 5 minutes before Lamb got there which ties up with the 1.00 discovery time.-If he is off by 5 minutes everything else is just fine thank you, if he arrived before Lamb and Lamb arrived just before or at 1, then what time did Eagle go out for help? Your denial of stated times by the witnesses is the only real problem here. In your estimation, Louis is right and everyone else is off by up to 20 minutes. In Spooners case, a variance of 5 minutews alligns with Issac K and Lambs statement.


No matter how much garbage you type the statements and times dont change. What you dont accept or believe has no bearing on that. Your lack of insight into the relationship of that club with the police, of the impact of a investigators belief that the killer on the loose was an Immigrant Jew.. just like the members still there, and the potential impact on the clubs operations if they were suspected of this crime, surely prevents you from a common sense approach to data interpretation.

[Wickerman]

...PC Smith estimated the newspaper wrapped parcel to be nearly half a metre in vertical length. Do we really believe it was just for this?...

Smith didn't measure the parcel, he was asked to make a guess five days later.
In my view the size is not important as he couldn't possibly know. All that matters is the fact the man was carrying a package.

which could easily have been..

[Wickerman]

I have to disagree, if Stride was prostituting herself then it is likely that she would have propositioned men who were walking by or men who were leaving the club, who is to say that one of these men took exception to her advances and simply pushed her aside causing her to fall to the ground.

To say that she was pushed by her killer is without foundation

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Prostitutes had their own patch, to sell her self on someone else's patch was to invite some form of physical retribution from the woman on who's patch she was imposing.
On this night she seemed to put some effort into her appearance, so I doubt she was soliciting. And by all accounts she was not known around there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your insistence that all the witnesses that claimed an earlier discovery......Issac K, Heschberg, Spooner and Lamb by virtue of the fact that he is at the gates before Louis says he arrived there, and was unseen by Fanny Mortimer at her door until 1am..were all wrong so that Louis can be believed is...well, I dont know what it is. Revisionist to say the least.


Diemschitz.- Unseen arrival, did not arrive when he said he did, and has economic reasons to downplay any negligence/guilt by club or attendees. Biased.
Eagle.-Could not be sure Liz wasnt already lying there at 12:40, and does not see Lave who also said he was there as well. Receives his money from club for speaking there. Biased
Gilleman.-Does not confirm a time of 1am.
Mrs Diemschitz,-Biased.
Mila, the servant-Biased.
Julius Minsky.-Biased
PC Lamb, who in all reports but one he simply estimates ‘around 1.00.’ (And 1.05 or 1.06 is around 1.00 for anyone that speaks English.)
Fanny Mortimer who hears a horse and cart passing just at the time that Diemschutz said that he returned.-PC Lamb is the only witness that had to track his time accurately, and said he saw men running "just before 1am" That would indicate they went for help before Louis says he arrived and discovered the body. What Fanny heard isnt Louis, its what she thinks was a cart and horse. She didnt see what made the sound, and the cart and horse would be taken away to store in George Yard.

Kozebrodski - we are being asked to believe that a plot was initiated and yet Diemschitz didn’t bother explaining this to Kosebrodski at any point either in the yard or when they went looking for a Constable. Yeah right. Back on planet Earth Kozebrodski was clearly wrong on his time estimation. Told reporters that he was sent out by Louis or some other member at 12:40. Your assessment of how good a damage control story would work without everyone being informed is your opinion, why they chose to do this isnt related to the facts here.

Hoschberg - ditto. Clearly mistaken.-Once again, your opinion and contrary to what he stated. Any Proof he was mistaken? Oh right, your opinion.

Spooner - Said that he got to the yard at 12.35 which is way out and doesn’t even line up with Kozebrodski and Hoschberg! He also said that he arrived 5 minutes before Lamb got there which ties up with the 1.00 discovery time.-If he is off by 5 minutes everything else is just fine thank you, if he arrived before Lamb and Lamb arrived just before or at 1, then what time did Eagle go out for help? Your denial of stated times by the witnesses is the only real problem here. In your estimation, Louis is right and everyone else is off by up to 20 minutes. In Spooners case, a variance of 5 minutews alligns with Issac K and Lambs statement.


No matter how much garbage you type the statements and times dont change. What you dont accept or believe has no bearing on that. Your lack of insight into the relationship of that club with the police, of the impact of a investigators belief that the killer on the loose was an Immigrant Jew.. just like the members still there, and the potential impact on the clubs operations if they were suspected of this crime, surely prevents you from a common sense approach to data interpretation.

Those that believe your childish plot……1

Those that don’t………….everyone else.

[Michael W Richards]

Morris Eagle returns to the club at 12:40, and cannot be sure a body is not lying where he has to walk. Lave is standing by the gates, and doesnt see Eagle at all, nor does Morris see Lave. Louis Diemshitz arrives at 1am. He is not seen arriving by Fanny, at her door until 1am, nor anyone else. As he gets off his cart he sees PC Lamb arrive there with Morris Eagle and Issac Kozebrodski, who left for help 20 minutes earlier. The departure time for Eagle and Issac is approx 20 minutes before Louis arrives. Spooner is also there, having seen men running for help 20 minutes earlier. Louis goes inside to tell people that a body is in the passageway, which is in direct conflict with Eagle and Issac K finding PC Lamb just before 1am, and Spooner seeing men running for help. As he notifies the men that he found a body Johnson has already been called and is on his way to the site for 1:10.

This is the story Herlock suggests is the accurate accounting of times and actions. This is what he uses to denounce my reconstruction of events using only non-biased witnesses and the times they gave themselves. His suggestion is that everyone is wrong by 20 minutes and Louis is the only account that matters.

Issac K and Heschberg give times of 12:40 for their being notified of the body, which can be reconciled with PC Lamb seeing Eagle and being joined by Issac after seeking help and then returning to the gates around 1am.

Decide for yourselves what is reasonable, rational, and works with the known statements.

Ive tried. You can lead a brain damaged horse to water, but.........

[Michael W Richards]

My question in return to you is, why do you feel the need to ask questions we cannot possibly answer?
What purpose does it serve?

I contend that for all questions there are indeed answers, our ability to discover what those answers are may be limited or inhibited, but not asking questions guarantees that answers will not be found.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So…..to ‘dolt,’ ‘sociopath,’ ‘learning difficulties,’ we can now add ‘brain damaged.’

[Herlock Sholmes]

Morris Eagle returns to the club at 12:40, and cannot be sure a body is not lying where he has to walk. Lave is standing by the gates, and doesnt see Eagle at all, nor does Morris see Lave. Louis Diemshitz arrives at 1am. He is not seen arriving by Fanny, at her door until 1am, nor anyone else. As he gets off his cart he sees PC Lamb arrive there with Morris Eagle and Issac Kozebrodski, who left for help 20 minutes earlier. The departure time for Eagle and Issac is approx 20 minutes before Louis arrives. Spooner is also there, having seen men running for help 20 minutes earlier. Louis goes inside to tell people that a body is in the passageway, which is in direct conflict with Eagle and Issac K finding PC Lamb just before 1am, and Spooner seeing men running for help. As he notifies the men that he found a body Johnson has already been called and is on his way to the site for 1:10.

This is the story Herlock suggests is the accurate accounting of times and actions. This is what he uses to denounce my reconstruction of events using only non-biased witnesses and the times they gave themselves. His suggestion is that everyone is wrong by 20 minutes and Louis is the only account that matters.

Issac K and Heschberg give times of 12:40 for their being notified of the body, which can be reconciled with PC Lamb seeing Eagle and being joined by Issac after seeking help and then returning to the gates around 1am.

Decide for yourselves what is reasonable, rational, and works with the known statements.

Ive tried. You can lead a brain damaged horse to water, but.........

They’ve already decided Michael…..you just haven’t got the message.

Twenty years of utter rejection.

[Fiver]

Dr Blackwells suggests that Liz had been cut "while falling". .

That is not what r Blackwell said, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you.

"The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground." - Dr Blackwell.