The Stride Murder

[Sunny Delight]

I agree with your answer to that question.






I think so.






I have always thought that if Schwartz was followed, it was because of what he had seen.

But I think your theory is an interesting one.

We will never know what Pipeman thought. Did he just happen to walk in the same direction as Schwartz who in those seconds felt he was being followed. Or did Pipeman think Schwartz had been involved in an altercation and he did follow him but then thought better of it. Who knows? The important thing is Schwartz felt he was being followed. Whether he was or not we will never know.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

We will never know what Pipeman thought. Did he just happen to walk in the same direction as Schwartz who in those seconds felt he was being followed. Or did Pipeman think Schwartz had been involved in an altercation and he did follow him but then thought better of it. Who knows? The important thing is Schwartz felt he was being followed. Whether he was or not we will never know.

I agree.

To my mind, the main question is whether he was an accomplice of BS Man.

But if BS did not murder Stride, then the answer is not even relevant to the Whitechapel murders.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Schwartz felt threatened or afraid because he had just seen a man be violent with a woman then shout at him in what would have been an aggressive manner going by the fact it was an anti-semitic slur. There is no grand conspiracy. We are talking about an event that took maybe 10-15 seconds. Instinct takes over. You may not be threatened but you may feel that you are in that moment. Add in the fact that Schwartz initially felt the slur was directed at Pipeman and again you can see how in those seconds, in a foreign country with another man now involved seemingly following you- well it would get very frightening indeed.

The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski' & then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran so far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far.

There is nothing here to suggest that Schwartz felt the least bit frightened before he is followed. On the contrary, he seems like a rather casual observer.

Perhaps you could suggest how you know that anything was shouted at Schwartz, and why this shout seemingly went unheard by anyone else.

We will never know what Pipeman thought. Did he just happen to walk in the same direction as Schwartz who in those seconds felt he was being followed. Or did Pipeman think Schwartz had been involved in an altercation and he did follow him but then thought better of it. Who knows? The important thing is Schwartz felt he was being followed. Whether he was or not we will never know.

According to Abberline, Pipeman ran - he didn't just walk, although it is open to interpretation if Pipeman walked and then ran or ran immediately. The notion that Pipeman ran off in fear, moments after lighting a pipe and presumably witnessing whatever occurred at the gateway, is one that I find absurd. So, what reason would Pipeman have for running in Schwartz's direction, other than Schwartz being his target?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I agree.

To my mind, the main question is whether he was an accomplice of BS Man.

What do you mean by accomplice? Do you mean that he stands watch and warns his buddy of 'intruders', while his buddy is attempting to kill someone? Why would a watchman, presumably with a lit pipe in his hand, deem it necessary to pursue another man who is harmlessly walking away from the scene?

But if BS did not murder Stride, then the answer is not even relevant to the Whitechapel murders.

BS doesn't seem like a man who could swiftly kill a victim in silence. The problem is that there is not enough time for another man to come along. So perhaps the story is fake, or the time and/or place is incorrect.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

In the press report, 'the Hungarian' gave these descriptions.

He described the man with the woman as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat. The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seem to belong to the same grade of society.

Clearly, the second man is after Schwartz. An attack on an alone woman, and an attempted attack on an alone man by two men who seem to be communicating, suggests we are dealing with a couple of muggers.

Some ask why the pipe has been replaced by a knife, but keep in mind that this man likely had two hands and at least as many pockets.

The notion that Schwartz was able to observe and recall the colour of the respective moustaches, is far-fetched.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have always thought that if Schwartz was followed, it was because of what he had seen.

But I think your theory is an interesting one.

Do you find it interesting that a respectably dressed man with a nice bag, was observed walking down Berner St at around the time of the murder?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Do you find it interesting that a respectably dressed man with a nice bag, was observed walking down Berner St at around the time of the murder?

Are you referring to Leon Goldstein?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

There is nothing here to suggest that Schwartz felt the least bit frightened before he is followed. On the contrary, he seems like a rather casual observer.

According to Abberline, Schwartz crossed the road on witnessing the assault, and started to walk away on hearing the insult 'Lipski'.

It seems he was apprehensive before being followed.

That does not seem like a casual observer.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Very intrigued at the map produced by Richard on the threads. Amazing work and it has give me lots of food for thought on the following sighting after Stride's murder:

"From two different sources we have the story that a man, when passing through Church Lane at about half past one, saw a man sitting on a doorstep and wiping his hands. As everyone is on the look-out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and sailor's hat."

On looking at the map it does appear to be a good place to 'clean up'. It also means JTR could then continue a few minutes down the road to Mitre Square. Of course the description is vague but it is interesting both Lawende and these sources claimed the man was wearing attire similar to that of a sailor. This description appeared in the Star newspaper before Lawende's description was made public. It is also interesting that this man waw wiping his hands. We don't know what with but let's say this was a cloth or such. Could this explain the taking part of Eddowes Apron to seemingly wipe his knife and/or hands. He had nothing further to clean his hands and/or knife with?

Also interesting that assuming this was JTR he seems to have a bit of a pattern whereby just like Goulston Street he likes to get clear of the crime scene before stopping in a quiet side street to clean up.

Is there any more information on this sighting?

Just some thoughts.

Hi Sunny,

The Church Lane man is certainly an intriguing character. Sadly, there's very little to go on. Assuming the timings are correct (!) there's a very narrow window for him to reach Mitre Square and pick up Kate. One to ponder at any rate.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

In response to the recent comments on Witness Testimony: Albert Cadosche

I would point out that BS Man was described by Schwartz as both broad-shouldered and stout.

That is obviously not a description of someone who merely looks bigger than he is because of the clothing he is wearing.

The idea that he could have been Jewish is far-fetched.

Neither Abberline nor Schwartz considered it and there was nothing to indicate that BS was an immigrant.

Contemporaneous commentators noted the very low incidence of public displays of drunkenness among Jews; physical attacks by Jews on women in the street were practically unheard of.

It was unheard of for Jews to shout anti-Jewish insults as fellow Jews passed by in the street.

On the other hand, contemporaneous commentators noted that it was common for Gentiles to make anti-Jewish comments as Jews passed them by in the street.

Several posters have claimed that Jews and Gentlles could not be distinguished.

How then could Abberline tell that Schwartz had a strong Jewish appearance?

How did the anti-Semites know whom to direct their comments at when someone passed them by in the street?

Did they merely guess?

I pointed out that the man with the pipe was estimated by Schwartz to be 5 ft 11 ins, whereas Polish Jewish men were on average just over 5 ft 3 ins.

Responses to these points are along the lines that BS could have been a special case of a Polish Jew whose accent was not detectable and who unusually got drunk in public and unusually attacked women in the street, and who shouted an anti-Semitic insult as a person who was identifiably Jewish passed by, even though it was unheard of for a Jewish person to do so, and that Pipe Man was an unusually tall Jew.

All these suggestions are being made even though they run counter to everything that is known.

If, as so many here have suggested, Jews and Gentlles could not be distinguished by sight, how could BS discern that Schwartz was Jewish or, if he directed the insult at Pipe Man, what made him think that a man who was 5 ft 11 ins tall and smoking a pipe was Jewish?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Are you referring to Leon Goldstein?

The one and only.

According to Woolf Wess, Goldstein was a traveller. According to the press report, Schwartz had gone out for the day. So, at nearly 1am, Schwartz was still out. Which of the following do you think most likely, in explaining Schwartz's long absence from his home?

• sight-seeing around London
• a really long shift in a factory
• working hard as Richard Mansfield's understudy at the Lyceum Theatre
• traveller

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The one and only.

According to Woolf Wess, Goldstein was a traveller. According to the press report, Schwartz had gone out for the day. So, at nearly 1am, Schwartz was still out. Which of the following do you think most likely, in explaining Schwartz's long absence from his home?

• sight-seeing around London
• a really long shift in a factory
• working hard as Richard Mansfield's understudy at the Lyceum Theatre
• traveller

I do not see anything suspicious about the conduct of either man.

The fact that both promptly contacted the police after the murder should be decisive.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

According to Abberline, Schwartz crossed the road on witnessing the assault, and started to walk away on hearing the insult 'Lipski'.

It seems he was apprehensive before being followed.

That does not seem like a casual observer.

Because you're projecting cause and effect onto Schwartz's movements, without justification.

As a thought experiment though, let's assume you're right that 'Lipski!' is what made Schwartz walk away. So, he had crossed road and then stopped again. He must have stopped again if it is the call of Lipski which causes him to recommence walking. Is he apprehensive at that moment? If yes, then why has he stopped again?

Regardless of his state of mind, a more important question is what is occurring at the gates at this point? What does Schwartz see and hear, before he continues on? Is it more physical abuse of the woman? More not very loud screams? Quarrelling? Dragging of the woman into the yard? There is a big void in the story.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I do not see anything suspicious about the conduct of either man.

The fact that both promptly contacted the police after the murder should be decisive.

Schwartz waited until the evening. Goldstein was persuaded to go to the police by Wess, which occurred late on the Tuesday evening. Is that what you mean by prompt? Tuesday was the day that police doubts about Schwartz's story, reached the press. Coincidence?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

6i

Schwartz waited until the evening. Goldstein was persuaded to go to the police by Wess, which occurred late on the Tuesday evening. Is that what you mean by prompt? Tuesday was the day that police doubts about Schwartz's story, reached the press. Coincidence?

I think so.