The Stride Murder

[Wickerman]

The 1889 Police Code gives pub operating times.
Page 147 - All pubs within a radius of 4 miles from Charing Cross must close at 12:00 midnight on Saturday nights.

[New Waterloo]

It seems a bit odd this pushing and pulling of Stride witnessed by Schwartz. The assailant is witnessed pulling Stride out of the entrance to the yard, not into it, before he throws her to the ground. Is she trying to escape him by trying to go into the yard as a place of safety as she could probably hear people inside the club and presumably lights on etc. In other words it was not the intention of the assailant to take her into the yard. There is some evidence I think has been overlooked which seems to me to indicate a dragging of stride on the ground. There is mention of her hair being very matted with mud. I think this is mentioned during the inquest. I know it is important to reference sources but its early in the morning and I will look later. if she just fell to the ground would her hair be heavily 'matted' which I take as meaning 'caked' into the hair. just landing on the muddy floor surely wouldn't cause this. But perhaps a dragging of her either alive or dead would matt the hair with mud. It could be just a short distance maybe a couple of feet or perhaps longer. perhaps dragged into the gateway. I mean she was already on the floor and he would have to decide quickly. If she escaped she would be a star witness to his identity whether JTR or not better cut her throat. I guess this doesn't fit with the timings but thought I would share this thought with you all. Good morning NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

The 1889 Police Code gives pub operating times.
Page 147 - All pubs within a radius of 4 miles from Charing Cross must close at 12:00 midnight on Saturday nights.

Thanks for that Wick. I wonder how often a bit of late serving went on with a blind eye being turned by the beat Constable? I wonder if Spooner simply saw people coming out of a pub late and assumed that it was closing time and that’s why he gave a an earlier time for his arrival at Dutfield’s Yard. Especially when he said that he’d arrived there around 5 minutes before PC Lamb which obviously makes much more sense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It seems a bit odd this pushing and pulling of Stride witnessed by Schwartz. The assailant is witnessed pulling Stride out of the entrance to the yard, not into it, before he throws her to the ground. Is she trying to escape him by trying to go into the yard as a place of safety as she could probably hear people inside the club and presumably lights on etc. In other words it was not the intention of the assailant to take her into the yard. There is some evidence I think has been overlooked which seems to me to indicate a dragging of stride on the ground. There is mention of her hair being very matted with mud. I think this is mentioned during the inquest. I know it is important to reference sources but its early in the morning and I will look later. if she just fell to the ground would her hair be heavily 'matted' which I take as meaning 'caked' into the hair. just landing on the muddy floor surely wouldn't cause this. But perhaps a dragging of her either alive or dead would matt the hair with mud. It could be just a short distance maybe a couple of feet or perhaps longer. perhaps dragged into the gateway. I mean she was already on the floor and he would have to decide quickly. If she escaped she would be a star witness to his identity whether JTR or not better cut her throat. I guess this doesn't fit with the timings but thought I would share this thought with you all. Good morning NW

Good morning NW,

The ‘Schwartz incident’ certainly raises questions including the ones that you mention. If Stride hadn’t been killed and we had just witnessed what Schwartz said that he saw then I feel that most of us would be saying that it appeared to be some kind of ‘domestic.’ Like some drunken, bullying husband trying to drag his reluctant wife/partner home. The fact that she didn’t scream out very loudly (in the midst of a series of murders) might suggest an element of familiarity or the inevitability of a beating to come?

If it was the ripper then could it have been that he wanted her to go with him to somewhere more private than Dutfield’s Yard but she resisted and he panicked and just killed her to silence her? Complete speculation of course.

I think that her hair being matted with mud would just be consistent with her head landing in a muddy patch as she fell after being killed. Phillips said:

“There was mud on the left side of the face and it was matted in the head.”

So it seems consistent with her lying her face and long hair in the mud.

[Elamarna]

The 1889 Police Code gives pub operating times.
Page 147 - All pubs within a radius of 4 miles from Charing Cross must close at 12:00 midnight on Saturday nights.

Yes good info, I mentioned the 72 licencing act above, but we have reports of pubs being open later, law is one thing, enforcement is an entirely different matter Wicky.
The "lock in" was probably as common then as it was in later years before extended opening hours in the mid 2000s.

We cannot assume an official closing time of midnight, which I mentioned myself, means people could not have left a pub at a later time.

Also closing and chucking out were completely different matters.
Finally Schwartz doesn't say he left the pub, only that he left the doorway.



Steve

[Elamarna]

It seems a bit odd this pushing and pulling of Stride witnessed by Schwartz. The assailant is witnessed pulling Stride out of the entrance to the yard, not into it, before he throws her to the ground. Is she trying to escape him by trying to go into the yard as a place of safety as she could probably hear people inside the club and presumably lights on etc. In other words it was not the intention of the assailant to take her into the yard.

There are two reports one says pulled onto pavement, the other says pushed towards the gates.
Which is correct?
Is this simply a mistranslation? Schwartz required an interpreter.

There is some evidence I think has been overlooked which seems to me to indicate a dragging of stride on the ground. There is mention of her hair being very matted with mud. I think this is mentioned during the inquest. I know it is important to reference sources but its early in the morning and I will look later. if she just fell to the ground would her hair be heavily 'matted' which I take as meaning 'caked' into the hair. just landing on the muddy floor surely wouldn't cause this. But perhaps a dragging of her either alive or dead would matt the hair with mud. It could be just a short distance maybe a couple of feet or perhaps longer. perhaps dragged into the gateway. I mean she was already on the floor and he would have to decide quickly. If she escaped she would be a star witness to his identity whether JTR or not better cut her throat. I guess this doesn't fit with the timings but thought I would share this thought with you all. Good morning NW

Certainly possible.


Steve

[Elamarna]

Good morning NW,

The ‘Schwartz incident’ certainly raises questions including the ones that you mention. If Stride hadn’t been killed and we had just witnessed what Schwartz said that he saw then I feel that most of us would be saying that it appeared to be some kind of ‘domestic.’ Like some drunken, bullying husband trying to drag his reluctant wife/partner home. The fact that she didn’t scream out very loudly (in the midst of a series of murders) might suggest an element of familiarity or the inevitability of a beating to come?

Maybe she wasn't someone who was loud.
Maybe the attack caught her off guard and she froze to a degree.
Maybe the cut to her throat silenced her quicker than we assume.

That of course assumes she was killed by BS man, Herlock.

If it was the ripper then could it have been that he wanted her to go with him to somewhere more private than Dutfield’s Yard but she resisted and he panicked and just killed her to silence her? Complete speculation of course.

Possible Herlock, but the description sounds like a blitz attack, that simply occurred when Stride encounter BS man. He simply lost control for a few moments, killer or not, JTR or not, he was not concerned with being seen.

I think that her hair being matted with mud would just be consistent with her head landing in a muddy patch as she fell after being killed. Phillips said:

“There was mud on the left side of the face and it was matted in the head.”

So it seems consistent with her lying her face and long hair in the mud.

A lack of a discription of the entry way, where there was mud, I suggest leaves this open.
Another possibility, is that she had broken free of BS man while he was distracted momentary by Schwartz, and had crawled or moved back towards the door of the club, before the cut was made.

I am not sure I actually like that myself, but I think as a possibility it should be considered.

Steve

[FISHY1118]

The thing i find astonishing about Schwartz is ,that some would willingly dismiss his statement and version of event regarding the Stride attack at 12.45 .

Yet to the best of my knowledge there doesnt exist any other version of that same event by another witness .


Theres no reason that i can see ,or any evidence that would suggest Schwartz was mistaken or lied about what he saw took place between B.S and Liz Stride.
.

[Elamarna]

The thing i find astonishing about Schwartz is ,that some would willingly dismiss his statement and version of event regarding the Stride attack at 12.45 .

Yet to the best of my knowledge there doesnt exist any other version of that same event by another witness .


Theres no reason that i can see ,or any evidence that would suggest Schwartz was mistaken or lied about what he saw took place between B.S and Liz Stride.
.

Indeed I too find it odd people reject it.
We have 2 different reports.
The police report says she is pulled onto the street and the second man has a pipe.
The Star report say she's pushed towards the gateway, and the pipe becomes a knife.

The knife is probably just sensationalism by the Star.
The discrepancy over pulled or pushed is harder to understand and may be die to a translation issue.

The fact remains some people don't seem to be willing to even consider that BS man was her killer, suggesting a second man came along.
Others say that she was not a Ripper Victim, saying this was a domestic, for which I see no actual evidence.

Others simply reject the whole account, Schwartz lied.

To me, it seems some of these objection are out of a concern where it might lead if BS man is her killer, and it's not a domestic.

Steve

[FISHY1118]

Indeed .

If B.S is the killer of stride, and I happen to believe this to be the case ,it does certainly upset a few posters theories and suspects .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Maybe she wasn't someone who was loud.
Maybe the attack caught her off guard and she froze to a degree.
Maybe the cut to her throat silenced her quicker than we assume.

That of course assumes she was killed by BS man, Herlock.



Possible Herlock, but the description sounds like a blitz attack, that simply occurred when Stride encounter BS man. He simply lost control for a few moments, killer or not, JTR or not, he was not concerned with being seen.



A lack of a discription of the entry way, where there was mud, I suggest leaves this open.
Another possibility, is that she had broken free of BS man while he was distracted momentary by Schwartz, and had crawled or moved back towards the door of the club, before the cut was made.

I am not sure I actually like that myself, but I think as a possibility it should be considered.

Steve

Wouldn’t dispute any of that Steve.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Indeed .

If B.S is the killer of stride, and I happen to believe this to be the case ,it does certainly upset a few posters theories and suspects .

Care to name them?

[Elamarna]

Care to name them?

Maybe we should ask who does it favour.

I submit, that if BS man is the killer, then it favours the suspect suggested by Anderson and Swanson.
An attack on a victim would certainly be sufficient to ensure conviction as suggested by them.

Of course it is possible that BS man was not JTR, but it might explain the "witness"

Just a possibility.

Steve

[FISHY1118]

Care to name them?

If and when it suits me to I might .

But I'm sure posters can figure out some of easier ones themselves when they research all the evidence pertaining to witness descriptions .

[Herlock Sholmes]

If and when it suits me to I might .

But I'm sure posters can figure out some of easier ones themselves when they research all the evidence pertaining to witness descriptions .

I can see which ones you might mean. Druitt naturally because a) he wasn’t particularly broad shouldered, and b) you can never resist bringing him into any conversation, and c) for some reason you think that this is an opportunity for a dig at me.

We could also add Gull of course. Just to be fair.