The Stride Murder

[Michael W Richards]

If you’re going to give weight to Lave then you might as well say that Stride was killed by Prince Eddy and Lewis Carroll. If Lave was telling the truth then nothing happened that night. Stride wasn’t killed, Diemschitz never returned, Eagle didn’t return, Smith didn’t pass…

Lave has to be binned.

Shocking...you suggest shelving someone living in one of the cottages in the passageway? I guess thats instead of challenging his lack of vision AND Eagles to find out WHY they claim they didnt see each other, being in the same exact place at the same exact time. Then I guess we must toss Eagle too, since they both said the essentially the same thing. Oh right, Eagle added that he "couldnt be sure" whether a mortally injured woman was there in his way as he made his way to the kitchen door, walking near the wall.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sorry, let me understand this. Your use of the additional quotes is to establish... what exactly? Because if Louis arrived just after 1, because Fanny didnt see him, then why would Lamb say "about 1am" when he sees the men running? It would be closer to 1:10 if that were the case, and Johnson would already be onsite then. And of all the witnesses, why make Lamb one of the least able to tell the time? Hes the only one who had to do so as part of his job.

What do you mean “why would he say….?” Are you claiming that all of those newspapers are inventing their ‘about 1.00,’ and only The Telegraph is correct? Really?

Diemsschitz got back at around 1.00. The fact that Fanny didn’t see him is irrelevant because Fanny never said that she was on her doorstep at 1.00. It’s a figment of your imagination. Lamb’s ‘about 1.00’ was sometime just after 1.00.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So how...(I assume coincidentally) did he match several other witnesses times? As for Lamb, I believe he came back with Eagle around the time he said he did...just before, or around 1am. Which means Eagle left at around what time to go for help? Before Louis even arrives? Do you check on the times and facts before posting these feeble attempts to downplay that obvious record..that by using the times of the witnesses that say they knew of Liz around 12:40-12:45 means that Spooners time is close to being correct, that Issac K was correct with his time, as was Heschbergs, and that Lamb can show up at the time he says he did? And Johnson could be there at 1:10 like he says? Exhausting having to remind someone who should be able to construct a timeline using witnesses statements by themselves. If Louis arrives just after 1, Issac is then off by 20 minutes, so is Spooner, so is Heschberg, Lamb is also incorrect, as is Johnson. You would toss all those in favour of a statement that cannot be proven using know evidence and is contrary to all those men? And to the times they gave? And you still have the nerve to insult me......

I haven’t insulted you. Stop whining.

FrankO did a timeline as did Jeff Hamm. Neither of whom are dishonest enough to exist on exact timings.

[Herlock Sholmes]

She said she went in just after 1, ...so now is reading also a weakness of yours? Hard to keep track of them all.

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

I can read this passage perfectly well. Point out where she said that she went in just after 1.00.

Yet another invention from you Im afraid. Even if she did go onto her doorstep at 12.45 ( and I dispute this considering Smith’s statement about when he passed) then she went on there for 10 minutes.

I wonder if your maths is better than your reading?

12.45 + 10 minutes = ?

Is the answer - just after 1.00? Not on earth it’s not.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Shocking...you suggest shelving someone living in one of the cottages in the passageway? I guess thats instead of challenging his lack of vision AND Eagles to find out WHY they claim they didnt see each other, being in the same exact place at the same exact time. Then I guess we must toss Eagle too, since they both said the essentially the same thing. Oh right, Eagle added that he "couldnt be sure" whether a mortally injured woman was there in his way as he made his way to the kitchen door, walking near the wall.

Lave claimed to have gone into the yard at 12.30 and stayed there/in the street for 30 minutes and saw nothing.

No Smith….no Eagle….no Diemschitz…..no Mortimer…….no Schwartz……..and more importantly no Stride!

Lave was clearly a liar.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You are making a simple untruth into some sort of sinister conspiracy, when it is nothing of the sort. Its a man trying to cover his ass and his job when a dead woman is found on the grounds of a Jewish mens club thought to be run and populated by anarchists. One he runs. During a time when Jews were being accused of crimes and persecuted in that area...ever heard of the GSG? Now put that into the context of that time, and that event.

Staggering! You come up with this totally unbelievable plot and accuse me of creating some kind of conspiracy.

Diemschitz would have to have been a complete dimwit to have sent me out looking for a Constable before he was claiming to have returned.

[Michael W Richards]

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

I can read this passage perfectly well. Point out where she said that she went in just after 1.00.

Yet another invention from you Im afraid. Even if she did go onto her doorstep at 12.45 ( and I dispute this considering Smith’s statement about when he passed) then she went on there for 10 minutes.

I wonder if your maths is better than your reading?

12.45 + 10 minutes = ?

Is the answer - just after 1.00? Not on earth it’s not.

Fanny Mortimer, yet again: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him"

She saw Goldstein at 12:55, no-one else did. She went in after her stint at the door, which was until 1am. Soon after she heard......this isnt rocket science, though you seem to stumble around the basics like it is.

And she did not see anyone then, She did not claim to see Louis and cart and pony, she heard a cart and pony and guessed it was Louis. Like she guessed she heard boots that sounded like a policemans.

[Michael W Richards]

Lave claimed to have gone into the yard at 12.30 and stayed there/in the street for 30 minutes and saw nothing.

No Smith….no Eagle….no Diemschitz…..no Mortimer…….no Schwartz……..and more importantly no Stride!

Lave was clearly a liar.

Or did he see lots of people and things and yet claimed to have seen nothing. You dont know. Claiming to have seen nothing is what some witnesses say when a different answer can implicate them or others.

[Michael W Richards]

Staggering! You come up with this totally unbelievable plot and accuse me of creating some kind of conspiracy.

Diemschitz would have to have been a complete dimwit to have sent me out looking for a Constable before he was claiming to have returned.

Its not a plot or a conspiracy you....Its a club steward trying to protect his livelihood in a climate that was hostile to him, from the public and the police. A dead woman on a Jewish property during that Fall would have been poison to that club. No big conspiracy deal like you are trying to make this. Ive never said that he, or any staff member, tried to cover up killing someone, though its possible... I have said they tried to cover their asses. Which is plainly evident by the witness contradictions to what Louis claims.

You keep dodging addressing the times Ive given you, and what happens when you accept Louis, and instead what happens when you accept everyone who claimed an earlier discovery time. All the earlier discover stories work together with the approximate times given. His story means that multiple witnesses were all wrong by the same amount of time and that error is 15-20 minutes. Issac K, Heschberg, Spooner, PC Lamb, Johnson...all would have incorrect times just to support Louis claims. Are you really that obstinate, that you would throw away all the supported evidence that doesnt work with Louis's?

Dont bother to answer, you have already.. many times.

[Michael W Richards]

I haven’t insulted you. Stop whining.

FrankO did a timeline as did Jeff Hamm. Neither of whom are dishonest enough to exist on exact timings.

I did one here years ago. All the witnesses, and All the witness timings from 12:30am until 1:16am. It wouldnt matter to you though, you have been proven incorrect on so many points that you havent acknowledged or addressed...over and over again,....that faced with the facts you will just deny and denounce the one who pointed out your weaknesses. Again, Trump like.

[Michael W Richards]

What she heard just after 1 when she prepared for bed is noise from the police having arrived and the crowd that was already there. Many members of the club were gathered around Liz. So its your contention that Lamb arrived at the club with Eagle before Louis arrives? Thats Cart before the Horse isnt it?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fanny Mortimer, yet again: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him"

She saw Goldstein at 12:55, no-one else did. She went in after her stint at the door, which was until 1am. Soon after she heard......this isnt rocket science, though you seem to stumble around the basics like it is.

And she did not see anyone then, She did not claim to see Louis and cart and pony, she heard a cart and pony and guessed it was Louis. Like she guessed she heard boots that sounded like a policemans.

Between 12.30 and 1.00 she claimed to have been on her doorstep NEARLY the whole time. I’ll just repeat that for you Michael…NEARLY the whole time.

That means that she wasn’t on her doorstep for the whole 30 minutes.

That means that there was a period of time when she wasn’t on her doorstep.

Do you get it now?

She also said that she went onto her doorstep just after a Constable passed (which she estimated at 12.45 but if it was Smith then it was earlier.) She said that she was on her doorstep for around 10 minutes. So either….

a) she goes onto her doorstep just after Smith (approx 12.35) stays there for around 10 minutes then goes back inside (around 12.45) or

b) she goes onto her doorstep at 12.45, stays there for around 10 minutes then goes back inside (around 12.55)

Where you there Michael? Stop cherrypicking. Consider the evidence as a whole.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Or did he see lots of people and things and yet claimed to have seen nothing. You dont know. Claiming to have seen nothing is what some witnesses say when a different answer can implicate them or others.

Ok…you assume that he was ‘in on it.’ I might have guessed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Its not a plot or a conspiracy you....Its a club steward trying to protect his livelihood in a climate that was hostile to him, from the public and the police. A dead woman on a Jewish property during that Fall would have been poison to that club. No big conspiracy deal like you are trying to make this. Ive never said that he, or any staff member, tried to cover up killing someone, though its possible... I have said they tried to cover their asses. Which is plainly evident by the witness contradictions to what Louis claims.

You keep dodging addressing the times Ive given you, and what happens when you accept Louis, and instead what happens when you accept everyone who claimed an earlier discovery time. All the earlier discover stories work together with the approximate times given. His story means that multiple witnesses were all wrong by the same amount of time and that error is 15-20 minutes. Issac K, Heschberg, Spooner, PC Lamb, Johnson...all would have incorrect times just to support Louis claims. Are you really that obstinate, that you would throw away all the supported evidence that doesnt work with Louis's?

Dont bother to answer, you have already.. many times.

Nonsense. As if an adult with even a modicum of intelligence would think that the police would blame them for hosting a ripper murder. Not worthy of a seconds consideration.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What she heard just after 1 when she prepared for bed is noise from the police having arrived and the crowd that was already there. Many members of the club were gathered around Liz. So its your contention that Lamb arrived at the club with Eagle before Louis arrives? Thats Cart before the Horse isnt it?

Nice piece of evidence shaping but it won’t work Michael. The noise that she heard was was simply the crowd in the yard and the men running for help. Which happened not long after 1.00.