The Stride Murder

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is a relocation as it’s been rightly pointed out that the John Richardson thread had become a Schwartz/Berner Street discussion.

……..

Posted by Michael Richards:

. You two should do a stage show. Twisting times and quotes to fit your ....arguments?.. Can you even call them that when you dont even follow the given times and instead suggest anyone who does match your opinion on it was wrong.

I gave you the given times by the witnesses statements, and they dont match up with Louis arriving at, or even just after, 1. Did you address them using known evidence, or just your opinion on how all the other witness evidence is incorrect? You cite someone hearing something, without seeing,...and what she heard is evidence of what exactly? Did she see a "policeman" with his boots, did she see Louis, and cart and horse? No, of course not. But go ahead, use those as verified sightings anyway.

Maybe you should read what Spooner said again...or for the first time.........."I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard." So instead of him being off by just a few minutes hes now off by 20? Wow. Seems like such a coincidence that all the witnesses that stated an earlier time by the body are all wrong.. not just by a few minutes.... but by 15 or 20 minutes. Amazing coincidence. And Louis is the only one who gets it right, now thats convenient for you I guess, huh?

There is no need to assume Lamb was wrong, Fanny was wrong, Johnson was wrong, Blackwell was wrong, Spooner was wrong, Issac was wrong, Heschberg was wrong, because using a discovery time of 12:40-12:45, they all have the ability to meet the times they stated. Of course Lave doesnt see anyone at that time, nor Morris who is also there at that time, in fact they dont even see each other. Curious that. And Morris isnt sure whether Liz is already there when he arrives at 12:40, another curious thing. Louis states he arrives at 1, which has the search parties not even leaving until 1:05 ish, which has them just finding Lamb at 1:05-1:10, which is when Johnson is already getting ready to go to the site... by 1:10. Did Johnson have a premonition he would get the call?

Having all the witness and timings go your way doesnt work out,... but the way it actually happened, did work.

You even prefer to use the story of someone we cannot prove was even there to bolster your "theory". Nice work chaps, youve sure shown us how to answer direct questions truthfully

Response from me:

Perhaps you can explain how you select which Fanny Mortimer version to use? One one hand she says that she was on her doorstep nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00 (which doesn’t prove that she was on her doorstep at 1.00 btw) and then she also says that she went onto her doorstep just after a Constable passed (at 12.45 according to her) for 10 minutes which would have taken her up to going back inside at 12.55. So as we have absolutely no way of knowing exactly when Fanny was on her doorstep and when she wasn’t why do you use her as proof that Schwartz couldn’t have been there? You are trying to shape the various versions to suit your needs.

She didn’t see Morris Eagle returning from taking his girlfriend home at around 12.35…..so was Eagle or Mortimer lying? You claim that Diemschitz arrived at the club earlier than one (estimated at around 12.45 or so) so how come she didn’t see him pass on his cart either? If she didn’t see Eagle or Diemschitz and you have no issue with that, why is it so amazing that she didn’t see Schwartz? The whole Schwartz incident would only have taken a matter of seconds and we know from Fanny that she went back indoors at some point during the 12.30-1.00 period. Then when we factor in that we have no way of confirming the accuracy of Schwartz time either we can see that it’s just impossible to tie these times down. Despite the manipulations

[Michael W Richards]

This is a relocation as it’s been rightly pointed out that the John Richardson thread had become a Schwartz/Berner Street discussion.

Response from me (Herlock):

Perhaps you can explain how you select which Fanny Mortimer version to use? One one hand she says that she was on her doorstep nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00 (which doesn’t prove that she was on her doorstep at 1.00 btw) and then she also says that she went onto her doorstep just after a Constable passed (at 12.45 according to her) for 10 minutes which would have taken her up to going back inside at 12.55. So as we have absolutely no way of knowing exactly when Fanny was on her doorstep and when she wasn’t why do you use her as proof that Schwartz couldn’t have been there? You are trying to shape the various versions to suit your needs.


Fanny Mortimer, "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him" Do you not get the sense that Fanny was at her door by virtue of that last statement?

Since you seem to be having trouble making out what she said, she said that she was at her door "almost the whole time" between 12:30 and 1, and that at 1 am she had gone in to go to bed and she heard activity outside a few minutes later so she came back out. Just before 1 PC Lamb got to the gates with Eagle and Kozebrodski, who had been returning to the club after searching alone, and saw and joined Eagle and Lamb. For Eagle to have been returning with Lamb, who arrived "around" 1, what time must he have gone out for help?

She didn’t see Morris Eagle returning from taking his girlfriend home at around 12.35…..so was Eagle or Mortimer lying? You claim that Diemschitz arrived at the club earlier than one (estimated at around 12.45 or so) so how come she didn’t see him pass on his cart either?

She also never mentions seeing Liz, so it seems obvious that she was not at her door at 12:35. Nearly the whole time means just that. That is also the probable time Louis arrives, since Issac is called to the alley 10 minutes after arriving back at the club at 12:30. When Issac is sent for help and Eagle goes out, then Louis, thats when Spooner enters the picture. He said he thought he arrived in the yard about "25 minutes to 1", I suspect it was more like 15-20 minutes.

If she didn’t see Eagle or Diemschitz and you have no issue with that, why is it so amazing that she didn’t see Schwartz? The whole Schwartz incident would only have taken a matter of seconds and we know from Fanny that she went back indoors at some point during the 12.30-1.00 period. Then when we factor in that we have no way of confirming the accuracy of Schwartz time either we can see that it’s just impossible to tie these times down. Despite the manipulations

The manipulations are not my doing. Its all on paper, as I quoted it. Israel Schwartz said that he was there, and Liz was there, and BSM was there, and Pipeman was there. 4 people who were not there at any other time than when Israel says he was. 4 people the young couple, who were the only people aside from Goldstein that were seen by any other witness, did not see either. There was a yell made, according to Schwartz.. Fanny could hear bootsteps from inside, and you dont think she would have heard a yell? I suppose your not troubled with 4 people suddenly appearing then suddenly disappearing on the road to validate Schwartz, I dont see a reason to extend him that kind of credibility. To believe he, and only he, saw 3 people magically appear on what was called by several witnesses, a deserted street at that time. Excluding that young couple, who it is probable Brown saw. Did Brown see anyone fleeing at 12:45-46? Nope.

Good idea to move this from the Richardson thread, I hadnt anticipated having to go through the same data over and over, while there. Since Im only posting what people actually stated and giving times they themselves gave, not sure why this is so contentious.

[Michael W Richards]

I thought that I would mention a few other things. Fanny said she heard boots from inside her house, which means at that time she was not at her door, and she thought those boots belonged to a policeman. That was around 12:45. Why didnt Israel mention seeing that policeman if he was there on the street at the same time? Morris and Joe Lave both stated they were by the gates at 12:40, so why didnt they say they saw each other? Why didnt anyone but Issac K mention that he was sent out for help "by Louis or some other member"? Diemshitz and Eagle only mention that they went out. And Louis says he went with Issac[s]. Well Issac K says he went out at the behest of Louis or someone else from the club, he does not say he went with Louis. So is Issac[s] someone else, or did Louis forget that he had already sent Issac K out? Or did Louis not think to tell Issac to say that they went together?

By my reckoning, the boots she heard may have been Kozebrodski. And I think its possible the cart and horse she hears after 1 from inside might be the cart and horse being taken to stabling in George yard, I dont recall anyone specifically mentioning that the cart and horse were there when the police and medical men were there. And they were not stabled in the yard, despite the fact that there were stables there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good idea to move this from the Richardson thread, I hadnt anticipated having to go through the same data over and over, while there. Since Im only posting what people actually stated and giving times they themselves gave, not sure why this is so contentious.

It’s contentious because you are simply inventing things and cherrypicking from various versions.

Almost the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00 does not mean that she was on her doorstep at 1.00. If you say that it does then there’s no other way of putting it Michael….you are making things up.

So………

We have absolutely no way of knowing when Fanny went onto her doorstep and when she went back inside. If you claim otherwise then you are inventing.

We have no way of knowing what time Schwartz passed because we have no way of verifying however Schwartz came up with this time.

Despite being told how most versions say that Lamb said “about 1.00” you keep latching onto the “just before.”

Inquest: “About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell,” He was clearly uncertain but you create certainty out of nothing to suit your purpose.

…….

If you stopped making things up, cherrypicking from different versions and twisting the English language to suit then you would be able to understand the situation. Until you do understand and accept that there are different versions and that estimates are just that then you’ll continue to repeat the elementary errors that you keep falling into. We are only trying to help you to understand.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I thought that I would mention a few other things. Fanny said she heard boots from inside her house, which means at that time she was not at her door, and she thought those boots belonged to a policeman. That was around 12:45. Why didnt Israel mention seeing that policeman if he was there on the street at the same time? Morris and Joe Lave both stated they were by the gates at 12:40, so why didnt they say they saw each other? Why didnt anyone but Issac K mention that he was sent out for help "by Louis or some other member"? Diemshitz and Eagle only mention that they went out. And Louis says he went with Issac[s]. Well Issac K says he went out at the behest of Louis or someone else from the club, he does not say he went with Louis. So is Issac[s] someone else, or did Louis forget that he had already sent Issac K out? Or did Louis not think to tell Issac to say that they went together?

By my reckoning, the boots she heard may have been Kozebrodski. And I think its possible the cart and horse she hears after 1 from inside might be the cart and horse being taken to stabling in George yard, I dont recall anyone specifically mentioning that the cart and horse were there when the police and medical men were there. And they were not stabled in the yard, despite the fact that there were stables there.

I’d like to ask 3 simple questions.

1. Do you really think that all Victorian clocks and watches were accurate?
2. Do you really think that all Victorian clocks and watches were synchronised?
3. Do you really that Victorians had a greater ability to estimate periods of time than we do today?

For your theory to hold you have to believe ‘yes’ for all three. If you say ‘no’ your theory doesn’t exist.

[Michael W Richards]

I’d like to ask 3 simple questions.

1. Do you really think that all Victorian clocks and watches were accurate?
2. Do you really think that all Victorian clocks and watches were synchronised?
3. Do you really that Victorians had a greater ability to estimate periods of time than we do today?

For your theory to hold you have to believe ‘yes’ for all three. If you say ‘no’ your theory doesn’t exist.

Sorry to say but I dont accept your ultimatum anymore than I accept your flimsy excuses.

1. Of course not, 2., of course not and 3., I cant say. But I do believe that anyone would know the difference between 2 -5 minutes passing and 15-20 minutes. Youve trash talked all of what Ive posted, (despite it being from actual quotes and from actual source materials), based on your belief that everyone was just off by a few minutes. But as Ive pointed out.... probably a few dozen times, we have 15-20 minute differences between what witnesses said and what Louis claimed.

I believe Police would have a very good idea what the time was, (Lamb said he saw Eagle just before 1,) I believe that people coming from inside a building that would certainly have a timepiece, like the club, and had a very realistic chance of having seen a clock and then just quoted the time they saw, like Issac K and Heschberg. Issac said he arrived back at the club at 12:30 and about 10 minutes later was summoned to the passageway. The club would have a very accessible clock, they knew what time meetings started and ended, they stated it ended at 11:30 that night. Fanny made statements from when she was at her door and when she was inside, which means she had ongoing access to a clock.

Youve tried this angle before, trying to muddle the facts by suggesting non synchronized clocks are the issue. Thats not an issue, a 20 minute discrepancy between what Louis says happened and multiple witness accounts is.

There is a simpler way to do this....IF Louis didnt even arrive until 1am, then why did Lamb think he saw Eagle calling for help just before 1am? Why did Spooner think he saw the men around 25 minutes to 1?Why did Issac K say that at around 12:40 Louis or some other member sent him for help? Why did Fanny say that if anyone had left that yard before 1 she would have seen them, yet didnt see anyone Israel claims was there, nor did she see Louis arrive when he says he did. Why didnt the young couple see any of these alleged activities? How is it that Johnson could be there at 1:10 IF Louis didnt even first arrive until 1 or just after? If Lave and Eagle were where they said they were at 12:40, how could they not see each other.?..they both claimed to be on the same spot at the same time.

What you have neglected to do, as always, is agree that the times given by these staff members do not reconcile with the other witness accounts. Its a fact, they dont. So why is that? Why are Louis, Lave, Eagle and Mrs D giving different stories than everyone else? Do they all work at of for that club?

[Herlock Sholmes]

There is a simpler way to do this....IF Louis didnt even arrive until 1am, then why did Lamb think he saw Eagle calling for help just before 1am?

To try and get proper answers I’ll shorten the posts.

Here are 5 newspaper reports of what PC Lamb said at the inquest…. (already posted by Fiver and ignored by you of course)


1. In The Telegraph’s report (your favourite of course) of the inquest we get:

Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting.


2. In The Times report of the inquest we get:

About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street.


3. In the East London Advertiser, Oct 6th we get:

Police-constable Henry Lamb said that on Sunday morning when he was in Commercial-road, at about 1 o'clock.


4. In The Daily News, Oct 3rd we get:

"Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, who said: At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running to me, shouting." -


5. In The Morning Advertiser, Oct 3rd we get:

Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed - About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running to me shouting something.


So……we have 5 newspaper reports. Perhaps you will be good enough to explain why you choose to repeatedly quote The Telegraph as if it’s holy writ whilst avoiding the others like the plague? What have those other newspapers done to earn your disfavour Michael?

The rest of us know the answer of course but I thought it might be interesting to see if you will, for the first time, give a straight and logical reason for this. I somehow doubt it though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why did Spooner think he saw the men around 25 minutes to 1[/B]?[B]

Because he was estimating a time from an shaky starting point based on what he believed was closing time. Spooner’s statement is strange by anyone’s standards but there is one thing in it that’s solid (and that you like to ignore of course) That is that he estimated that he’d been at the yard around 5 minutes before Lamb got there.

Even you won’t claim that Lamb got to the yard at 12.40 (I hope) A time of around 1.00 or just after ties in perfectly. All it takes is the application of common sense and the acceptance of human error (especially under unusual/stressful circumstances)

Simple.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Lave and Eagle were where they said they were at 12:40, how could they not see each other.?..they both claimed to be on the same spot at the same time.[/B]

If you’re going to give weight to Lave then you might as well say that Stride was killed by Prince Eddy and Lewis Carroll. If Lave was telling the truth then nothing happened that night. Stride wasn’t killed, Diemschitz never returned, Eagle didn’t return, Smith didn’t pass…

Lave has to be binned.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And when someone says ‘nearly all of the time between x and y,’ it means ‘not all of the time’ or ‘most of the time BUT NOT ALL’ Michael. Nowhere does Mortimer say that she was at her door at 1.00 as you repeatedly claim. You made that up.

And……without much hope of a sensible answer……even if Fanny went onto her doorstep at around 12.45 (and we can’t know or corroborate this) how can YOU prove that Schwartz didn’t actually pass and see the incident at say 12.43. Or was his timing perfect too?

Try common sense Michael.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And….if Diemschitz was so determined to pass of the lie that he’d arrived back at the yard at 1.00 why was he so stupid as to have allowed his co-conspirators on to the streets to run into a Constable before 1.00?

[Michael W Richards]

To try and get proper answers I’ll shorten the posts.

Here are 5 newspaper reports of what PC Lamb said at the inquest…. (already posted by Fiver and ignored by you of course)


1. In The Telegraph’s report (your favourite of course) of the inquest we get:

Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting.


2. In The Times report of the inquest we get:

About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street.


3. In the East London Advertiser, Oct 6th we get:

Police-constable Henry Lamb said that on Sunday morning when he was in Commercial-road, at about 1 o'clock.


4. In The Daily News, Oct 3rd we get:

"Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, who said: At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running to me, shouting." -


5. In The Morning Advertiser, Oct 3rd we get:

Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed - About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running to me shouting something.


So……we have 5 newspaper reports. Perhaps you will be good enough to explain why you choose to repeatedly quote The Telegraph as if it’s holy writ whilst avoiding the others like the plague? What have those other newspapers done to earn your disfavour Michael?

The rest of us know the answer of course but I thought it might be interesting to see if you will, for the first time, give a straight and logical reason for this. I somehow doubt it though.

Sorry, let me understand this. Your use of the additional quotes is to establish... what exactly? Because if Louis arrived just after 1, because Fanny didnt see him, then why would Lamb say "about 1am" when he sees the men running? It would be closer to 1:10 if that were the case, and Johnson would already be onsite then. And of all the witnesses, why make Lamb one of the least able to tell the time? Hes the only one who had to do so as part of his job.

[Michael W Richards]

Because he was estimating a time from an shaky starting point based on what he believed was closing time. Spooner’s statement is strange by anyone’s standards but there is one thing in it that’s solid (and that you like to ignore of course) That is that he estimated that he’d been at the yard around 5 minutes before Lamb got there.

Even you won’t claim that Lamb got to the yard at 12.40 (I hope) A time of around 1.00 or just after ties in perfectly. All it takes is the application of common sense and the acceptance of human error (especially under unusual/stressful circumstances)

Simple.

So how...(I assume coincidentally) did he match several other witnesses times? As for Lamb, I believe he came back with Eagle around the time he said he did...just before, or around 1am. Which means Eagle left at around what time to go for help? Before Louis even arrives? Do you check on the times and facts before posting these feeble attempts to downplay that obvious record..that by using the times of the witnesses that say they knew of Liz around 12:40-12:45 means that Spooners time is close to being correct, that Issac K was correct with his time, as was Heschbergs, and that Lamb can show up at the time he says he did? And Johnson could be there at 1:10 like he says? Exhausting having to remind someone who should be able to construct a timeline using witnesses statements by themselves. If Louis arrives just after 1, Issac is then off by 20 minutes, so is Spooner, so is Heschberg, Lamb is also incorrect, as is Johnson. You would toss all those in favour of a statement that cannot be proven using know evidence and is contrary to all those men? And to the times they gave? And you still have the nerve to insult me......

[Michael W Richards]

And when someone says ‘nearly all of the time between x and y,’ it means ‘not all of the time’ or ‘most of the time BUT NOT ALL’ Michael. Nowhere does Mortimer say that she was at her door at 1.00 as you repeatedly claim. You made that up.

And……without much hope of a sensible answer……even if Fanny went onto her doorstep at around 12.45 (and we can’t know or corroborate this) how can YOU prove that Schwartz didn’t actually pass and see the incident at say 12.43. Or was his timing perfect too?

Try common sense Michael.

She said she went in just after 1, ...so now is reading also a weakness of yours? Hard to keep track of them all.

[Michael W Richards]

And….if Diemschitz was so determined to pass of the lie that he’d arrived back at the yard at 1.00 why was he so stupid as to have allowed his co-conspirators on to the streets to run into a Constable before 1.00?

You are making a simple untruth into some sort of sinister conspiracy, when it is nothing of the sort. Its a man trying to cover his ass and his job when a dead woman is found on the grounds of a Jewish mens club thought to be run and populated by anarchists. One he runs. During a time when Jews were being accused of crimes and persecuted in that area...ever heard of the GSG? Now put that into the context of that time, and that event.