The Stride Murder

[Doctored Whatsit]

So, if the pony was left just outside the club (door, I presume you mean), where was the cart left in relation to the body?

Yes, just outside the club door. That would have been well past the body. I don't understand the continuing references to the "missing pony". He moved the pony and cart out of the way.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, just outside the club door. That would have been well past the body. I don't understand the continuing references to the "missing pony". He moved the pony and cart out of the way.

That's not quite answering my question. If the pony was outside the door, where was the cart in relation to the body?

Wess: The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft.

[Doctored Whatsit]

That's not quite answering my question. If the pony was outside the door, where was the cart in relation to the body?

Wess: The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft.

I assume it was sideways at about 90% to the door, or as near as he could manage. What is the point exactly?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I assume it was sideways at about 90% to the door, or as near as he could manage. What is the point exactly?

The pony and cart together would have been longer than the passage was wide.

I think it would be interesting to recreate the discovery, as closely as possible, and see if we learn anything. Would a pony in this hypothetical, shy to the left and then stand there calmly? I'll believe that that's what occurred, when I see it.

[Doctored Whatsit]

The pony and cart together would have been longer than the passage was wide.

I think it would be interesting to recreate the discovery, as closely as possible, and see if we learn anything. Would a pony in this hypothetical, shy to the left and then stand there calmly? I'll believe that that's what occurred, when I see it.

I think that I now understand your point, but surely if the pony was near the club door, and facing it, he wouldn't be troubled by the corpse.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think that I now understand your point, but surely if the pony was near the club door, and facing it, he wouldn't be troubled by the corpse.

Diemschitz: All at once my pony shied at some object on the right.

Was the pony startled? If yes, how would it have reacted? Or did the pony calmy take a slight left turn?

I want to see this replicated as closely as possible, or at least hear from some animal experts on what they make of the evidence.

[Wickerman]

Presumably then, they were able to obtain additional facts and act further on the same information.

I was thinking more along the lines of them not being able to obtain location details from Schwartz. Perhaps they couldn't get him to recognise the club, the name of the yard, the pub on the corner, or a Board School opposite, all easily identifiable landmarks in daylight?
Is that due to the possibility he was in a different street?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I think you have the right idea, but according to the Daily News and The Evening News of 1 Oct Diemshitz said:

Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other.

As you know, Diemshitz (and Smith) mistook Johnson for Blackwell, so if the above is to be accepted, Spooner and Smith failed to see grapes in her hand, but one would imagine that Johnson might have commented on seeing grapes, but he testified that he did not notice at the time that one of the hands was smeared with blood, so he may have also missed the grapes. Alternatively, Diemshitz was mistaken on his timing.

Cheers, George

Yes, I do agree with these points.

As both PC Lamb and Johnston commented on the blood being clotted, and they both held her hands, either one could have caused the transfer of clotted blood to her right hand. I just prefer the transfer was caused by PC Lamb, and Johnston, as you say above, missed it.

[New Waterloo]

It does seem increasingly likely that Schwartz may have the wrong street. Something is definitely amiss here which to be honest we seem to be struggling with. However we seem to be getting somewhere all be it slowly. I think Schwartz would have described the location as the working men's club or similar name when talking of the gateway. The club was very well known and I believe only the Saturday before William Morris had made a speech at the club. There were many prominent political speakers and music events held there. As you all know it was not a sleepy venue. However I believe the newspaper report says that he was lodging in Berners Street so something is wrong. Do we know what number he lived at. I know I must not assume things but surely he would have identified the location in his report to the press and police. NW

[Wickerman]

The pony and cart together would have been longer than the passage was wide.

I think it would be interesting to recreate the discovery, as closely as possible, and see if we learn anything. Would a pony in this hypothetical, shy to the left and then stand there calmly? I'll believe that that's what occurred, when I see it.

Diem. says he reached down with his whip to prod the object, which means the horse has passed the woman, it is the cart that is now beside the body when he prods it, but urges the cart forward to make room for him getting down to investigate.

I've never understood the question about the horse, there is no consequence that I can see.

[Wickerman]

Diemschitz: All at once my pony shied at some object on the right.

Was the pony startled? If yes, how would it have reacted? Or did the pony calmy take a slight left turn?

I want to see this replicated as closely as possible, or at least hear from some animal experts on what they make of the evidence.

It seems to me the horse would only shy away if it perceived a threat, in this case the horse knew the object was alive. At this moment Stride was not dead, the horse detected that, so it thought something was crouched ready to pounce, it shies away from the threat.

These costermonger's carts were two-wheeled affairs, about 6 ft wide, and as the gateway was only 9 ft wide, the cart enters down the center of the yard (barely 18" on either side), so if the horse had not shied away, the cart wheel could have struck the body.

What does the horse have to do with anything?

[The Rookie Detective]

So, if the pony was left just outside the club (door, I presume you mean), where was the cart left in relation to the body?

The cart was past the body because Diemschultz had to go back to the body.

In other words, Diemschultx drove PAST Stride.


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Didn't Deiemschultz state or imply that he believed that the killer may have still been lurking further up in the yard, due to the reaction of the Pony? I got the impression that the Pony became unsettled.

The pony IS important, because presumably someone must have taken the Pony and Cart to the stable at the end of the yard after the body was discovered.

Now IF the killer was still lurking in the yard when Diemschultz pulled into the gateway, the ONLY time that the killer had to escape the yard, would have been the moment that Diemschultz went into the club door to find his wife.

Otherwise, the killer must have escaped SOUTH down Berner Street as the cart approached from the north.


OR, the killer managed to escape through the building (disused?) on the northern side of the yard, which ran across the back of the club and then got into the courtyard that then ran east to west from Backchruch Lane and back into Berner Street, and came out just around the house of Charles Letchford at no.30 Berner Street.

RD

[Wickerman]

It does seem increasingly likely that Schwartz may have the wrong street. Something is definitely amiss here which to be honest we seem to be struggling with. However we seem to be getting somewhere all be it slowly. I think Schwartz would have described the location as the working men's club or similar name when talking of the gateway. The club was very well known and I believe only the Saturday before William Morris had made a speech at the club. There were many prominent political speakers and music events held there. As you all know it was not a sleepy venue. However I believe the newspaper report says that he was lodging in Berners Street so something is wrong. Do we know what number he lived at. I know I must not assume things but surely he would have identified the location in his report to the press and police. NW

What is so annoying is the story by Schwartz forms the backbone of the Stride murder case. Everyone debates whether BS-man was, or was not her killer. Yet, none of the dozen or more witnesses in the street that night saw anything described by Schwartz.
Both scenario's do not merge, there's no room around the 12:45 mark for Pipeman, BS-man & Schwartz to enter the scene between PC Smith, Mortimer, Eagle & Lave.
What we learn at the inquest does not marry with Schwartz's story.
Something, very simple, is wrong.

If we can identify the problem, so could the police. And, we do have expressions of doubt coming from police. They could see what we see, but they didn't try massage the two scenario's to make them fit. They didn't, because this is not how you deal with investigations.
The police accepted the presence of Parcel-man, he was their first published suspect - the man seen by PC Smith.
Later, BS-man & Pipeman were added, but then whispers of doubt began to emerge from police towards the latter two, we just don't know why.

I don't rule out the possibility the police discovered another altercation occurred in a nearby street and they may have pressed Schwartz to see if he was convinced which street he was in. Maybe they couldn't get confirmation from him.

[The Rookie Detective]

IF the killer was STILL lurking in the yard after the murder because Diemshcultz interrupted him, then the killer MUST have escaped when Diemschultz went into the club, because otherwise the killer would have been seen by the person who moved the horse and cart.

The other option of course, is that the killer went BACK INTO THE CLUB...and the only thing he had to do was to hide/dispose of the knife somewhere.

Perhaps when Eagle was sent to Leman Street, it gave him the chance to get rid of the knife he had just used on Stride?

Or Lave?


RD


RD