The Stride Murder

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Regarding the bolded, I would add, "especially if the McKenzie murder had occurred about 50 minutes prior to another Ripper murder, and within easy walking distance of it". For me, that's an important aspect of the timing issue.

In another thread, you mentioned the possibility of Aaron Kosminski killing Stride but not committing any of the other Whitechapel murders. Steve Blomer mentioned that Martin Fido had written that that was a definite possibility. You might be interested to know that there's another writer who has endorsed that idea, in this case, one who thinks that Tumblety was the Ripper:

https://casebook.org/dissertations/tumb-art.html

Thanks for the link LC.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, that is what I suggest.
Stride was standing talking to Parcel-man, with her back to the street.
BS-man staggers past and over hears something he objects to.
Schwartz saw the man speak to Stride.
Perhaps he complained - "we don't want your sort around here".
People do say "we" when they are talking to another person who does not live in the area.
I don't know if he was a club member - possibly?

Would a random drunkard care about her sort being around here?
Alternatively, if he is assumed to be a club member, we could speculate on his relationship to Pipeman.

Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other.

Well, if the men were not known to each other, why do you suppose Pipeman ran off, having witnessed a fairly mild and presumably quite common, 'domestic'?

If Stride was facing the road it could be argued she was by herself, but if her back was to the road, she will have been facing Parcel-man, who is stood in the shadows, out of sight of Schwartz.

Out of sight of Schwartz perhaps, but what about the BS-man? They would be less than a few yards apart while BS was speaking to Stride. Surely him noticing Parcelman would have impacted the encounter?

Doesn't that help the argument?
I thought you might be showing me a report that said the entrance to the yard was bathed in light from the street.
I think the Star said the entrance was light enough, but then it was dark until the houses opposite cast a bit of light at the club wall. So for perhaps 20 or so feet it was sufficiently dark to hide anyone, even the body was in the shadows.
I'll try find the report.

It might help explain Schwartz not seeing Parcelman, but not why Parcelman and Stride have moved to this location from out on the street. Nor does it explain why Parcelman does not intervene when BS gets violent. Was he afraid of being seen, having not long before been witnessed talking to his intended victim, by a policeman?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Good to see you back NBFN. Nice analysis.

Cheers, George

Thank you, George. Since last posting I have been reading certain threads, including your posts.

[Wickerman]

Would a random drunkard care about her sort being around here?

I'm not saying he was random, he may have lived a few doors down.

Alternatively, if he is assumed to be a club member, we could speculate on his relationship to Pipeman.

Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other.

Well, if the men were not known to each other, why do you suppose Pipeman ran off, having witnessed a fairly mild and presumably quite common, 'domestic'?

I have not speculated on Pipeman.

Out of sight of Schwartz perhaps, but what about the BS-man? They would be less than a few yards apart while BS was speaking to Stride. Surely him noticing Parcelman would have impacted the encounter?

I made that point earlier, BS-man may have seen Parcel-man, we can't know what he saw he never came forward.

It might help explain Schwartz not seeing Parcelman, but not why Parcelman and Stride have moved to this location from out on the street. Nor does it explain why Parcelman does not intervene when BS gets violent. Was he afraid of being seen, having not long before been witnessed talking to his intended victim, by a policeman?

My point about Parcel-man is, he is her killer.
Parcel-man manovered Stride into Dutfields Yard to kill her, his plan was interrupted by BS-man, but that was short lived, directly after the scuffle between BS-man & Stride, Parcel-man strikes her down.
Any witnesses will think BS-man is responsible as he was the one seen assaulting Stride.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'm not saying he was random, he may have lived a few doors down.

If so, presumably he would have been spoken to by D-I Reid's men, as part of their general investigation.

My point about Parcel-man is, he is her killer.
Parcel-man manovered Stride into Dutfields Yard to kill her, his plan was interrupted by BS-man, but that was short lived, directly after the scuffle between BS-man & Stride, Parcel-man strikes her down.
Any witnesses will think BS-man is responsible as he was the one seen assaulting Stride.

Would you care to speculate on Parcelman and Schwartz being buddies?

[GBinOz]

I'm not saying he was random, he may have lived a few doors down.

In Providence Street perchance?

[Wickerman]

If so, presumably he would have been spoken to by D-I Reid's men, as part of their general investigation.

There are a lot of houses and presumably rented rooms south of Fairclough St., and/or East & West of Berner St.
Did the police find everybody?

Would you care to speculate on Parcelman and Schwartz being buddies?

I had wondered if BS-man was originally on his way to meet up with Pipeman.
I don't think Schwartz's story is all that clear on whether Pipeman followed him.

I think it's more likely that Schwartz knew none of the other characters, but Pipeman & BS-man just may have known each other.
And, I have a reason for thinking this, I think they may have been seen together at another crime scene.

This is the reason I am not 100% in favour of Stride being a Ripper victim, these two men may have been committing murders around the same time.
Although I feel the Parcel-man theory is a reasonable proposal, these two men complicate the picture.

Schwartz described the men as:

- First man who threw the woman down:- age about 30, ht. 5ft 5in. Comp. Fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

- Second man age 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.


Are you familar with the Mylett case?

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881224.html

Mylett was last seen in the company of two men, dressed like sailors.
One witness, Charles Ptolomey, gave police their descriptions.
He told police that the shorter man engaged the woman (just like BS-man), while the taller man walked up and down (keeping his distance, like Pipeman?).

"The shorter one was about 5 ft. 7 in."
"The tall one was about 5 ft. 11 in. He looked like a Yankee."

It isn't much to go on, I have not found any detailed descriptions of these two sailors, if they were sailors. The taller man was the same height as Pipeman who wore a black wide brimmed hat, similar to the Yankee style.

Abby will likely agree BS-man could be said to have dressed like a sailor, especially as I think he accept the man with Eddowes looked like a sailor.

These two men who were last seen with Mylett have not been researched by theorists as far as I know.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There are a lot of houses and presumably rented rooms south of Fairclough St., and/or East & West of Berner St.
Did the police find everybody?

So, the police didn't find the BS-man, nor did he come forward voluntarily. Ditto Pipeman. Perhaps that's because these characters didn't exist, but is that any excuse? Israel Schwartz didn't exist, but at least he had the good civic virtue to go to the police and tell them what he'd seen.

I had wondered if BS-man was originally on his way to meet up with Pipeman.
I don't think Schwartz's story is all that clear on whether Pipeman followed him.

Abberline tells us that the second man (Pipeman) ran in Schwartz's direction. If the two men are assumed to have been meeting up, then it would seem logical to suppose that Pipeman was indeed pursuing Schwartz. For what reason, though? Schwartz was already walking away from the scene. Or was he?

I think it's more likely that Schwartz knew none of the other characters, but Pipeman & BS-man just may have known each other.

Assuming the two men existed, can you tell me why Pipeman could not possibly be...?

Joseph Lave says:- "I am a Russian, and have recently arrived in England from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at the time, and I noticed nothing wrong."

Both the timing and location appear to be spot on.

And, I have a reason for thinking this, I think they may have been seen together at another crime scene.

This is the reason I am not 100% in favour of Stride being a Ripper victim, these two men may have been committing murders around the same time.
Although I feel the Parcel-man theory is a reasonable proposal, these two men complicate the picture.

Schwartz described the men as:

- First man who threw the woman down:- age about 30, ht. 5ft 5in. Comp. Fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

- Second man age 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.


Are you familar with the Mylett case?

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881224.html

Mylett was last seen in the company of two men, dressed like sailors.
One witness, Charles Ptolomey, gave police their descriptions.
He told police that the shorter man engaged the woman (just like BS-man), while the taller man walked up and down (keeping his distance, like Pipeman?).

"The shorter one was about 5 ft. 7 in."
"The tall one was about 5 ft. 11 in. He looked like a Yankee."

It isn't much to go on, I have not found any detailed descriptions of these two sailors, if they were sailors. The taller man was the same height as Pipeman who wore a black wide brimmed hat, similar to the Yankee style.

Abby will likely agree BS-man could be said to have dressed like a sailor, especially as I think he accept the man with Eddowes looked like a sailor.

These two men who were last seen with Mylett have not been researched by theorists as far as I know.

In this theory, is BS-man the Ripper?

[GBinOz]

This is the reason I am not 100% in favour of Stride being a Ripper victim, these two men may have been committing murders around the same time.
Although I feel the Parcel-man theory is a reasonable proposal, these two men complicate the picture.

Schwartz described the men as:

- First man who threw the woman down:- age about 30, ht. 5ft 5in. Comp. Fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

- Second man age 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.


Are you familar with the Mylett case?

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881224.html

Mylett was last seen in the company of two men, dressed like sailors.
One witness, Charles Ptolomey, gave police their descriptions.
He told police that the shorter man engaged the woman (just like BS-man), while the taller man walked up and down (keeping his distance, like Pipeman?).

"The shorter one was about 5 ft. 7 in."
"The tall one was about 5 ft. 11 in. He looked like a Yankee."

It isn't much to go on, I have not found any detailed descriptions of these two sailors, if they were sailors. The taller man was the same height as Pipeman who wore a black wide brimmed hat, similar to the Yankee style.

Abby will likely agree BS-man could be said to have dressed like a sailor, especially as I think he accept the man with Eddowes looked like a sailor.

These two men who were last seen with Mylett have not been researched by theorists as far as I know.

Hi Jon,

Alternatively, JtR may have been a two man team. Rob Hills suggested that possibility here:

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-cats-cradle.html

He proposed James Hardiman and George Morris as the two men involved. Do we know the height of Hutchinson?

Cheers, George

[New Waterloo]

Hello all. You are all going to cringe when I mention PC Spicer but just bear with me. Whether we believe his tale of arresting somebody on the night of the double event what he says years later in the Daily Express newspaper may be very relevant. He states that he arrested a Doctor in a courtyard off of Heanage Street. I am working from memory now but I believe it was near some dustbins at the address of would you believe. James Hardiman. (I think it works out as 13 Heanage Street) Now its unlikely Spicer would have known that when he spoke with the Press in the 1930s. Blotchy Doctor arrested at James Hardimans adress on the night of Stride and Eddowes murders also James had a younger brother I believe lived at 29 Hanbury street. Just because Spicer is mentioned surely we cant ignore this. Maybe as George suggests its a two man team. Maybe I am talkin a load of rubbish which is not unusual. NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Israel Schwartz walked down Berner Street at, according to him, around 12.45 but we can’t claim this as exact. He saw a man struggle with Stride outside the yard. He saw Pipeman and they left the street after BS Man shouted. Either BS man killed Stride or he left and someone else did. This whole incident would have taken a minute tops. Fanny Mortimer was inside when it occurred and so saw nothing. Morris Eagle had returned to the club as had Lave so they saw nothing. When Fanny went onto her doorstep she saw Goldstein pass who was completely unconnected to the events at the yard. She went back inside then a very few minutes later (at around 1.00) she heard Diemschitz pass by and return to the yard. Then a further very few minutes later she heard the commotion and went back out.

No mystery. I think that as a subject as a whole we have passed the point of being ‘bored’ with established versions. As if it’s somehow disreputable not to attach some kind of plot. The vagaries of reporting provide fertile ground for this. Sadly.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Israel Schwartz walked down Berner Street at, according to him, around 12.45 but we can’t claim this as exact. He saw a man struggle with Stride outside the yard. He saw Pipeman and they left the street after BS Man shouted. Either BS man killed Stride or he left and someone else did. This whole incident would have taken a minute tops. Fanny Mortimer was inside when it occurred and so saw nothing. Morris Eagle had returned to the club as had Lave so they saw nothing. When Fanny went onto her doorstep she saw Goldstein pass who was completely unconnected to the events at the yard. She went back inside then a very few minutes later (at around 1.00) she heard Diemschitz pass by and return to the yard. Then a further very few minutes later she heard the commotion and went back out.

Was she really? So why does the only report we have, apparently regarding Mortimer, that mentions the 12:45 point, say this...?

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

Schwartz's story would be a lot more believable if there was any evidence that either of the men he placed on Berner street, actually existed outside of his imagination.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was she really? So why does the only report we have, apparently regarding Mortimer, that mentions the 12:45 point, say this...?

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

Schwartz's story would be a lot more believable if there was any evidence that either of the men he placed on Berner street, actually existed outside of his imagination.

So how can we know which is true?

Was she correct when she said that she heard the Constable (Smith) pass?

Can we be sure what she meant by the inexact “shortly before a quarter to one o’clock”?

What time exactly did Smith pass when he estimated 12.30 - 12.35?

Would, for example, a time for Smith of 12.35 or 12.36 or 13.37 have been in line with FM’s ‘shortly before 12.45”?

How can we know that the source by which FM got her ‘just before 12.45’ time was correct?

How can we know that her source was synchronised with Smith’s source?

How can we corroborate the accuracy of Schwartz time and how can we know that his source for his time was synchronised with FM’s source?

And this is without mentioning the variations in reports of what Lave said.

Or how Spooner thought that, on one hand, he got to the yard around 12.35, while on the other he claimed to have arrive 5 minutes before Lamb?

…..

So yet again I’ll bring up the perils of estimated times and estimated time periods and the need for applying a margin for error on all times (even for those who specifically claim to have looked at a clock or to have owned a watch….if a Doctor owned a good watch and says that it’s 3.00 do I take 3.00 as spot on? No I don’t. I’d consider a fairly high chance of accuracy but nothing set in stone).

So could the Stride incident have occurred without anyone else seeing it? Without a shadow of a doubt. Would Schwartz have lied to place himself at the scene of a murder? About as likely as Tyson Fury joining the Royal Ballet.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ll add a scenario to the mix. I’m not particularly pushing this as a theory but just for the sake of discussion. The times are approximated of course:


At around 12.35 Smith had passed on his beat and Morris Eagle had returned from escorting his lady friend home. Fanny comes on to her doorstep where she remains for around 10 minutes which means that she goes back inside around 12.45. The man that Liz Stride is with is regarded by her as a boyfriend or potential boyfriend and not a client (keen to put her past behind her) I’ll call him X.

They move across to the gateway. X either tells Liz that he wants to use the clubs outside loo or that he has to go inside for a word with someone. She waits in the gateway for him and neither noticed BS man walking along Berner Street. Stride then spots him as a former client and so she steps back into the gateway hoping that he’ll pass but he’s already spotted her.

He arrives on the scene drunk and asks Liz to go with him for business but she’s not interested. He’s annoyed with a “so I’m not good enough for you now?” attitude. Liz doesn’t scream loudly for two reasons. Firstly, she knows him and he’s never been violent before; he’s just a drunken nuisance with poor timing. Secondly, she wants him gone before X gets back (because she doesn’t want him to know about her past) and a loud scream would only draw attention and probably get people running out from the club (including X) Schwartz witnesses this then leaves (as does Pipeman)

X emerges from the club and sees Liz struggling with BS man in the gateway. The guy is a coward and scarpers leaving Liz alone with X but just before he flees BS man tells X that his new girlfriend is a prostitute. Not wanting to discuss this on the street they retire to the shadows inside the yard. He questions her. Liz comes clean. X flips, pulls out a knife and cuts her throat, then flees the scene. A very few minutes later Diemschitz returns and finds her body.

[S.Brett]

So, what happened to Parcel-man?
At 12:35 Stride was with him, and she had been with a man since at least 11:00pm, so I'm thinking Bricklayers Arms-man is also Parcel-man.
So, Parcel-man has bought her some grapes, fully intending to spend some time with her, yet 10 mins later she is alone, or is she?

Hi Jon!

City Police officer Cox:

"He made his way down to St George's in the East End, and there to my astonishment I saw him stop and speak to a drunken woman.

I crouched in a doorway and held my breath. Was he going to throw himself right into my waiting arms? He passed on after a moment or two, and on I slunk after him.

As I passed the woman she laughed and shouted something after me, which, however, I did not catch.

My man was evidently of opinion that he might be followed every minute. Now and again he turned his head and glanced over his shoulder, and consequently I had the greatest difficulty in keeping behind him.

I had to work my way along, now with my back to the wall, now pausing and making little runs for a sheltering doorway. Not far from where the model lodging house stands he met another woman, and for a considerable distance he walked along with her.

Just as I was beginning to prepare myself for a terrible ordeal, however, he pushed her away from him and set off at a rapid pace.

In the end he brought me, tired, weary, and nerve-strung, back to the street he had left where he disappeared into his own house".

"a considerable distance" may also mean a considerable time. Indeed, Parcel-man could have been a man similar to the suspect Cox described. One "prime suspect" at least was able to spend some time with prostitutes.

Karsten.