Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[John Wheat]

How do we know who did and didn't see Jack the Ripper?

Cheers John

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

I think you just have to be reasonable and assess the likelihood of the suggestion that Swanson, the police official with personal overall charge of the ripper investigation, would manufacture the "appearance of a sailor" detail and include it in his 19th October report (and sanction its publication in the Police Gazette of the same date) unless he was absolutely certain that Lawende uttered those words. If you're arguing that Swanson was dependent on "City information", then you'll appreciate that that the City were just as dependent on "Lawende information". You will then note, accordingly, that Swanson obtained his information from the City, who obtained their information from Lawende. The only ludicrous position to adopt would be one that asserts that Swanson invented the sailor detail.

That's the beginning and end of the point I'm making. I do not intend arguing over what was suppressed and why, and I'm certainly not trying to press for Jack the Sailor. I'm simply addressing the reality that Lawende described the man as having a sailor-like appearance. Make of it what you will, just don't claim he never said it.

[Wickerman]

Yes, he did!

We don't have to invest the "sailor" detail with more significance than the observation warrants. It's clear that lots of men could be described as having a sailor-like appearance, in whatever respect, without any of them actually going anywhere near a rudder or a bottle of rum in his life. But we must still acknowledge the fact that the Lawende said the man looked like a sailor.

Ben.
The press believed this detail had been suppressed, due to its importance.
Here both you and Tom have now suggested that lots/numerous/many men could have looked "like a sailor", without actually being anywhere near the sea.
Ok, so where is the value in this?

It cannot be both Ben, it is either important and worthy of suppression because it is unique, or, it is not important, the press (as usual) were mistaken in their assumption, and Lawende never made any such claim.

I have suggested the latter - :
It is not important, the press (as usual) were mistaken in their assumption, and Lawende never made any such claim.

Show me where any one of these points is wrong.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Swanson most assuredly got "appearance of a sailor" from Lawende - that much is factually established.

Ben, please feel free to post where Lawende said "appearance of a sailor". I'd hate to think this factual morsel has had a limited distribution.

The first published description of the Lawende suspect appeared on 2nd Oct. - though no source is provided. This was nine days before Lawende appeared as a witness, and was hushed up by Crawford.

The press had a better rapport with the City police, so this may be from an official source.
"...He is described as of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak."
Times, 2 Oct. 1888.

No mention of "appearance of a sailor", and likewise in his official report to the H.O., Insp. McWilliam makes no mention of this very 'important'? detail.
In fact, the idea just surfaces out of the blue with Swanson, but Lawende was a City witness.
Swanson's dependency on the City for information appears to be reflected in his own words:
"..In this case I understand from City Police that Mr Lewin (Lawende), one of the men identified the clothing only of the murdered woman Eddowes, which is a serious drawback to the value of the description of the man."

It appears, from his own words, that Swanson was not dealing first-hand with Lawende.

The suggestion "appearance of a sailor", originated with Swanson, but is not noted by any City sources, nor by the City witness himself, at any time.

[Ben]

no-one said anything about a sailor, not even Lawende

Yes, he did!

We don't have to invest the "sailor" detail with more significance than the observation warrants. It's clear that lots of men could be described as having a sailor-like appearance, in whatever respect, without any of them actually going anywhere near a rudder or a bottle of rum in his life. But we must still acknowledge the fact that the Lawende said the man looked like a sailor.

[Wickerman]

Clerks and sailors. Clerks and sailors. Bah.

It's the peaked cap folks.

Marshall, Schwartz and Lawendes all describe a man with a peak cap.

My money is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.
Right? c'mon folks this isn't rocket science.

Ten out of ten Abby, no-one said anything about a sailor, not even Lawende.

This whole "appearance of a sailor" was an interpretation adopted by the police based solely on various witness sightings of a man in a peaked cap.

[Abby Normal]

And merchant marine.

merchant marine. hmmm i like it and sounds like blotchy to me.
drinks, local joe, goes to pubs, reddish hair, blotchy face, has a little money, frequents prostitutes. perhaps has an on board schedule that keeps him off the tsreet during certain times (middle of the month).

yes blotchy as a merchant marine sounds good to me.

[Hunter]

Peaked caps were worn by the military for the most part, and sea captains. I know civilians wore them too, but they were definitely connected to the military...

And merchant marine.

[lynn cates]

provisions

Hello Abby.

"It's the fact that he was wearing a peaked cap that ties everything together and answers many of the questions about the night of the double event."

Correct, PROVIDED:

1. there were ONLY one out and about with a peaked cap

and

2. there is a link between being seen with someone and subsequently killing her.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Your again missing the point. It's not what he was wearing to describe what his profession is. It's the fact that he was wearing a peaked cap that ties everything together and answers many of the questions about the night of the double event.

Peaked caps were worn by the military for the most part, and sea captains. I know civilians wore them too, but they were definitely connected to the military and still are. No one wears them today but the military...or almost no one.

Mike

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Blotchy man is a good call, Kelly was worse for wear through drink and it is unlikely she would have gone out again.

Did Blotchy stay or did he leave her and someone else enter her room?

cheers

Nick

Hi nick
I agree. All circumstances are that she was not planning on going out again that night. I Beleive blotchy stayed and killed her and then left, probably around the four o clock time frame, but could have been earlier or later, but he was gone before the sun came up.

If it wasn't blotchy, then he left, and the killer went to her room, and again she was probably killed around fourish.

[Nick Spring]

Blotchy

seriouly though. I think out of all the supects, that blotchy has the best chance of being the ripper, therefor Cox was most likely to see the ripper.

I also think that schwartz, marshall and lawende probably saw the ripper-the suspect i call peaked cap man, the night of the double event.

If blotchy was not the ripper, then sarah lewis probably saw the ripper in Mr. Waity Watchy, AKA as wide awake man, AKA hutch.

smith and long might have seen the ripper.

Hi Abby,

Blotchy man is a good call, Kelly was worse for wear through drink and it is unlikely she would have gone out again.

Did Blotchy stay or did he leave her and someone else enter her room?

cheers

Nick

[Fisherman]

Your again missing the point. It's not what he was wearing to describe what his profession is. It's the fact that he was wearing a peaked cap that ties everything together and answers many of the questions about the night of the double event.

That should single him out, alright!

Just kiddin´, Abby - but peaked caps were very, very common back then. I´ve seen pictures of huge groups of men from the time, ninety per cent or more wearing peaked caps.

That´s not to say that the killer did not wear a peaked cap. I do believe he did.

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

What branch of the military?

Mike

Your again missing the point. It's not what he was wearing to describe what his profession is. It's the fact that he was wearing a peaked cap that ties everything together and answers many of the questions about the night of the double event.

[The Good Michael]

Clerks and sailors. Clerks and sailors. Bah.

It's the peaked cap folks.

Marshall, Schwartz and Lawendes all describe a man with a peak cap.

My money is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.
Right? c'mon folks this isn't rocket science.

What branch of the military?

Mike