Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[Nick Spring]

Hello All. Perhaps we should balance our speculation against Mac's dictum that no one saw the ripper.

Cheers.
LC

Er ...except the City policeman

[lynn cates]

Mac

Hello All. Perhaps we should balance our speculation against Mac's dictum that no one saw the ripper.

Cheers.
LC

[Nick Spring]

Yes, both Swanson and McWilliam mentioned that fact in their HO reports.

Unlike Mrs. Long, Schwartz or Hutchinson, Lawende didn't go to the police with his information, but was found during a house-to-house enquiry. He would have been a somewhat reluctant witness and a little concerned about his own well being. He was sequestered and guarded as much for his own safety as for keeping him from the press. His friends didn't talk much either and could have to the press.

Swanson did believe that, out of all of the witnesses so far, Lawende likely saw Kate Eddowes with her murderer. The police played the weak hand they'd been dealt.

If you look at the two suspects we know Lawende was apparently used in ID attempts of (Sadler and Grainger) the reason is obvious and was the one thing the police wanted to keep close to their chests - "appearance of a sailor."

"Swanson did believe that, out of all of the witnesses so far, Lawende likely saw Kate Eddowes with her murderer". Yes that makes sense given the timings.

cheers

Nick

[Nick Spring]

It has been suggested that Lawende played down his role in front of the press, perhaps on advice from the police?
Yet Swanson includes the fact that Lawende was not as able as they would have liked, so we cannot accept Swanson pursuing the charade even into police reports to his superior.
Therefore, Lawende must have truly been unsure about the man he saw.

Hi Jon,

thanks for that.

Not as able or not as willing? who knows. The description he gives is reasonable though.

Best

Nick

[harry]

Schwartz information of pipeman ,would seem to tally with that of Brown.Neither of them reported any other male person in the vicinity,excluding BS,and he could have departed the same way he arrived thus averting being seen by Brown.My opinion of course,is that pipeman and the male Brown reported as being in Stride's company,are the same person.

[Hunter]

It has been suggested that Lawende played down his role in front of the press, perhaps on advice from the police?
Yet Swanson includes the fact that Lawende was not as able as they would have liked, so we cannot accept Swanson pursuing the charade even into police reports to his superior.
Therefore, Lawende must have truly been unsure about the man he saw.

Yes, both Swanson and McWilliam mentioned that fact in their HO reports.

Unlike Mrs. Long, Schwartz or Hutchinson, Lawende didn't go to the police with his information, but was found during a house-to-house enquiry. He would have been a somewhat reluctant witness and a little concerned about his own well being. He was sequestered and guarded as much for his own safety as for keeping him from the press. His friends didn't talk much either and could have to the press.

Swanson did believe that, out of all of the witnesses so far, Lawende likely saw Kate Eddowes with her murderer. The police played the weak hand they'd been dealt.

If you look at the two suspects we know Lawende was apparently used in ID attempts of (Sadler and Grainger) the reason is obvious and was the one thing the police wanted to keep close to their chests - "appearance of a sailor."

[Tom_Wescott]

It has been suggested that Lawende played down his role in front of the press, perhaps on advice from the police?
Yet Swanson includes the fact that Lawende was not as able as they would have liked, so we cannot accept Swanson pursuing the charade even into police reports to his superior.
Therefore, Lawende must have truly been unsure about the man he saw.

Either that or the City Police told the Met Police a big one.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Regarding Schwartz, I believe he was briefly a suspect himself, so that might be why he wasn't at the inquest. In any event, the police clearly wanted to keep him 'under wraps' so that might be reason enough.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

We simply don't know the thinking of the police with regard to Schwartz and the inquest. To conclude that it was the result of lack of confidence in his statement is speculation.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Hi Hunter,

I have always thought that was peculiar the way Lawende almost played down his testimony and yet gave a reasonable description.

Best

Nick

It has been suggested that Lawende played down his role in front of the press, perhaps on advice from the police?
Yet Swanson includes the fact that Lawende was not as able as they would have liked, so we cannot accept Swanson pursuing the charade even into police reports to his superior.
Therefore, Lawende must have truly been unsure about the man he saw.

[Nick Spring]

Hello all,

If Cadosche was accurate with his statement then its probable Mrs Long did not see Annie Chapman at around 5:30....If Mr Lawende did in fact see Kate, (something not as yet proven...for myself anyway), then he most likely saw her killer....If Israel Schwartz did see what he claimed, (despite the lack of confidence the police showed in his statement by their total disregard for it at the Inquest and instead the use of Mr Browns statement for 12:45....although he didnt see Liz at all..), then he likely saw Liz Strides killer, and if Mary Ann Cox was accurate then she likely saw the man that killed Mary Kelly.....but none of those witnesses likely saw the man for which the nickname was created.

I believe that its very possible that the person who killed Polly and Annie, the man who was the inspiration for the Ripper nickname on the letter dated the 27th, didnt kill anyone else in the Canonical Five.

In which case, since no witnesses saw those 2 women just before their murder in the company of someone....(Cadosche only heard something)...I would say that its probable no-one saw the person who was nicknamed The Ripper.

Best regards

Hi Michael,

What makes you think that Polly and Annie are different from the rest? It is very likely Elizabeth Long saw someone prior to Annie's murder.

Best

Nick

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

If Cadosche was accurate with his statement then its probable Mrs Long did not see Annie Chapman at around 5:30....If Mr Lawende did in fact see Kate, (something not as yet proven...for myself anyway), then he most likely saw her killer....If Israel Schwartz did see what he claimed, (despite the lack of confidence the police showed in his statement by their total disregard for it at the Inquest and instead the use of Mr Browns statement for 12:45....although he didnt see Liz at all..), then he likely saw Liz Strides killer, and if Mary Ann Cox was accurate then she likely saw the man that killed Mary Kelly.....but none of those witnesses likely saw the man for which the nickname was created.

I believe that its very possible that the person who killed Polly and Annie, the man who was the inspiration for the Ripper nickname on the letter dated the 27th, didnt kill anyone else in the Canonical Five.

In which case, since no witnesses saw those 2 women just before their murder in the company of someone....(Cadosche only heard something)...I would say that its probable no-one saw the person who was nicknamed The Ripper.

Best regards

[Ben]

Why does it follow that Schwartz must be right and Smith must be inaccurate?

I never suggested that Smith was "inaccurate", Dam. I'm quite sure his statement was both truthful and accurate. I just doubt that the man he saw was Stride's killer, for reasons mentioned.

[Nick Spring]

I don't know about how "useful" he was, but Lawende was apparently used by police as late as 1895. He was also the only witness who's testimony was corroborated by two other witnesses.

Despite his "not knowing the man again" claim, his description was fairly detailed and considered a vital enough clue that he and his evidence were treated with special effort by the police.

Hi Hunter,

I have always thought that was peculiar the way Lawende almost played down his testimony and yet gave a reasonable description.

Best

Nick

[Hunter]

I don't know about how "useful" he was, but Lawende was apparently used by police as late as 1895. He was also the only witness who's testimony was corroborated by two other witnesses.

Despite his "not knowing the man again" claim, his description was fairly detailed and considered a vital enough clue that he and his evidence were treated with special effort by the police.

[Nick Spring]

Eye witnesses can be very unreliable and in some cases purely fraudulent attention seekers.I personally don't take any of the so called reported sightings of our killer seriously when you consider the light and distances and time spent observing our killer.

Hi Pinkmoon,

Given the timings I would suggest one of the witnesses did actually see the murderer. Descriptions are another matter given memory recall and lighting conditions. I would think Lawende and Long are the most blikely to have seen the killer.

Best

Nick