right
Hello Jon.
"I'm open to being persuaded that she was strangled, but as yet I have not been able to convince myself."
Same here.
Cheers.
LC
Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?
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Originally posted by curious4 View PostAs no-one ever saw Jack kill we cannot know whether he strangled them while they were standing or whether he threw/knocked them down first, and then choked them into unconsciousness before using his knife. I should think that the latter would have been easier. Schwarz never says he saw a woman being beaten - just that he saw her thrown down in the street or in the passage, depending on which report you read.
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Hi Gwyneth.
Why on earth anyone would think blood smears & blood clots looked like grapes it completely beyond me. She wasn't the only victim to have blood on her person, yet nowhere else do we read that witnesses claim to see grapes on a victim.
Staggering.
Now the scarf is another matter, possibilities do exist that he used that to strangle her. It's just that none of the doctors provide anything by way of supporting evidence (bruised neck, swollen face, protruding tongue, etc.) that she may have been choked.
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Clenched hands
Hello Jon,
The cachous were lodged tightly between thumb and forefinger. Whichever doctor (both Blackwell and Phillips lay claim to it) removed the packet had to prise the hand open to get it. Says clenched hands to me, anyway. Also, Diemschutz is recorded as telling a journalist that Stride's "tightly clenched hands held sweets in one hand and grapes in the other". Perhaps we can accept that clotted blood could be mistaken for grapes in the dark and panic, but "tightly clenched hands" nonetheless.
We do have the tightly knotted scarf as well. "Strangling with a ligature" perhaps? Supposed to render the victim unconscious very rapidly, I have read.
Best wishes,
C4Last edited by curious4; 12-31-2013, 12:21 PM.
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Originally posted by curious4 View PostBoth Liz and Kate had clenched hands, a sign of strangulation, or so I am told.
The right hand was open and on the chest, and was smeared with blood. The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.
I'm open to being persuaded that she was strangled, but as yet I have not been able to convince myself
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Strangled
Hello Lynn,
Seem to remember having this argument with you some time ago, even producing testimony from my favourite autopsy site. Both Liz and Kate had clenched hands, a sign of strangulation, or so I am told.
Happy New Year, anyway, or Hogmanay in your case. May the New Year bring you (and all Ripperologists) health, wealth and happiness.
Regards,
C4/Gwyneth
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signs
Hello Gwyneth.
"we cannot know whether he strangled them while they were standing or whether he threw/knocked them down first, and then choked them into unconsciousness before using his knife."
Indeed. And, given the absence of signs of strangulation in Liz and Kate's cases, we cannot be sure HOW they were subdued.
"As to many people believing that Schwarz is unreliable, I believe this is a fairly recent concept. The police at the time took him very seriously."
But perhaps not at Leman st?
"A good many children believe in Santa but that doesn't make him real."
Precisely my sentiments about the ripper.
Cheers.
LC
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High-pitched Jack?
Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostOr, at least, he heard the side-effects of what the Ripper was doing. I believe Cadosch only heard Annie's voice, if such it was, and even then only a syllable.
Of course we are just presuming that the voice was Annie's - Jack could have had a high-pitched voice, many men have, and he must have been in a state of exitement at the time.
Ok, not very likely, but it is never good to take anything for granted.
Best wishes,
C4
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Jack's way
Hello Damaso,
As no-one ever saw Jack kill we cannot know whether he strangled them while they were standing or whether he threw/knocked them down first, and then choked them into unconsciousness before using his knife. I should think that the latter would have been easier. Schwarz never says he saw a woman being beaten - just that he saw her thrown down in the street or in the passage, depending on which report you read.
As to many people believing that Schwarz is unreliable, I believe this is a fairly recent concept. The police at the time took him very seriously. A good many children believe in Santa but that doesn't make him real.
Best wishes,
C4
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Originally posted by curious4 View PostI think what Schwartz describes is exactly what Jack did in the other killings. Surprise attack, victim thrown to the ground, arrogantly indifferent to the risk of being caught.
To me, this cannot possibly be the same man who lowered Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes to the ground AFTER incapacitating them (leaving no evidence with the lattermost about how she was subdued!), who killed Nichols under an insomniac's window without waking her, who killed Eddowes near a night watchmen without rousing him, who left no meaningful evidence of any kind and, to our knowledge, was never seen in the act of killing or even attacking anyone else.
Jack the Ripper is an inherently quiet killer. I think BS man cannot be the same as the Ripper. I choose to believe that BS man did not exist and that Schwartz is not a credible witness, a view I'm far from alone in holding.
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View PostSince its far from clear who killed Liz Stride, and its very probable that the man that killed Polly was the Ripper, who also killed Annie, then you have Albert as the most probable witness to have heard the Ripper.
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Originally posted by Michael W Richards View PostI think it can be fairly said that of all the witnesses only 2 provide stories in which a Ripper murder might have been taking place at that time....Israel with claimed eye witness testimony, and in the case of sound evidence, Cadosch.
Since its far from clear who killed Liz Stride, and its very probable that the man that killed Polly was the Ripper, who also killed Annie, then you have Albert as the most probable witness to have heard the Ripper.
I dont believe anyone actually saw him just before the act or during.
Cheers
Cheers
DRoy
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Since Schwartz didn't describe Stride at all and only identifies her after seeing her body, I'm not sold he even saw her being attacked.
Lawende didn't see Eddowes and apparently couldn't identify the suspect.
Yet one of the two is most probable as being used in identity parades. Which one and why? Whichever one would have to be the best witness.
Cheers
DRoy
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