Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

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  • lynn cates
    replied
    right

    Hello Jon.

    "I'm open to being persuaded that she was strangled, but as yet I have not been able to convince myself."

    Same here.

    Cheers.
    LC

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  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    I think it was P.C. James Harvey

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  • Damaso Marte
    replied
    Originally posted by curious4 View Post
    As no-one ever saw Jack kill we cannot know whether he strangled them while they were standing or whether he threw/knocked them down first, and then choked them into unconsciousness before using his knife. I should think that the latter would have been easier. Schwarz never says he saw a woman being beaten - just that he saw her thrown down in the street or in the passage, depending on which report you read.
    If Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes were thrown to the ground, where are the bruises and the ear-witness account of screams? I don't think this is consistent with the forensics or the quietness of the killings.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Hello C4
    Originally posted by curious4 View Post
    Of course we are just presuming that the voice was Annie's
    Well, all "she" said was "No!", so my money's on Annie.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Hi Gwyneth.

    Why on earth anyone would think blood smears & blood clots looked like grapes it completely beyond me. She wasn't the only victim to have blood on her person, yet nowhere else do we read that witnesses claim to see grapes on a victim.
    Staggering.

    Now the scarf is another matter, possibilities do exist that he used that to strangle her. It's just that none of the doctors provide anything by way of supporting evidence (bruised neck, swollen face, protruding tongue, etc.) that she may have been choked.

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  • curious4
    replied
    Clenched hands

    Hello Jon,

    The cachous were lodged tightly between thumb and forefinger. Whichever doctor (both Blackwell and Phillips lay claim to it) removed the packet had to prise the hand open to get it. Says clenched hands to me, anyway. Also, Diemschutz is recorded as telling a journalist that Stride's "tightly clenched hands held sweets in one hand and grapes in the other". Perhaps we can accept that clotted blood could be mistaken for grapes in the dark and panic, but "tightly clenched hands" nonetheless.

    We do have the tightly knotted scarf as well. "Strangling with a ligature" perhaps? Supposed to render the victim unconscious very rapidly, I have read.

    Best wishes,
    C4
    Last edited by curious4; 12-31-2013, 12:21 PM.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by curious4 View Post
    Both Liz and Kate had clenched hands, a sign of strangulation, or so I am told.
    Interesting you should say that, Blackwell described Stride's hands as:

    The right hand was open and on the chest, and was smeared with blood. The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

    I'm open to being persuaded that she was strangled, but as yet I have not been able to convince myself

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  • curious4
    replied
    Strangled

    Hello Lynn,

    Seem to remember having this argument with you some time ago, even producing testimony from my favourite autopsy site. Both Liz and Kate had clenched hands, a sign of strangulation, or so I am told.

    Happy New Year, anyway, or Hogmanay in your case. May the New Year bring you (and all Ripperologists) health, wealth and happiness.

    Regards,

    C4/Gwyneth

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  • lynn cates
    replied
    signs

    Hello Gwyneth.

    "we cannot know whether he strangled them while they were standing or whether he threw/knocked them down first, and then choked them into unconsciousness before using his knife."

    Indeed. And, given the absence of signs of strangulation in Liz and Kate's cases, we cannot be sure HOW they were subdued.

    "As to many people believing that Schwarz is unreliable, I believe this is a fairly recent concept. The police at the time took him very seriously."

    But perhaps not at Leman st?

    "A good many children believe in Santa but that doesn't make him real."

    Precisely my sentiments about the ripper.

    Cheers.
    LC

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  • curious4
    replied
    High-pitched Jack?

    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Or, at least, he heard the side-effects of what the Ripper was doing. I believe Cadosch only heard Annie's voice, if such it was, and even then only a syllable.
    Hello Sam,

    Of course we are just presuming that the voice was Annie's - Jack could have had a high-pitched voice, many men have, and he must have been in a state of exitement at the time.

    Ok, not very likely, but it is never good to take anything for granted.

    Best wishes,
    C4

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  • curious4
    replied
    Jack's way

    Hello Damaso,

    As no-one ever saw Jack kill we cannot know whether he strangled them while they were standing or whether he threw/knocked them down first, and then choked them into unconsciousness before using his knife. I should think that the latter would have been easier. Schwarz never says he saw a woman being beaten - just that he saw her thrown down in the street or in the passage, depending on which report you read.

    As to many people believing that Schwarz is unreliable, I believe this is a fairly recent concept. The police at the time took him very seriously. A good many children believe in Santa but that doesn't make him real.

    Best wishes,
    C4

    Leave a comment:


  • Damaso Marte
    replied
    Originally posted by curious4 View Post
    I think what Schwartz describes is exactly what Jack did in the other killings. Surprise attack, victim thrown to the ground, arrogantly indifferent to the risk of being caught.
    BS man was allegedly throwing a woman to the ground, beating her up, indifferent to the amount of sound he was creating, in front of at least two people.

    To me, this cannot possibly be the same man who lowered Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes to the ground AFTER incapacitating them (leaving no evidence with the lattermost about how she was subdued!), who killed Nichols under an insomniac's window without waking her, who killed Eddowes near a night watchmen without rousing him, who left no meaningful evidence of any kind and, to our knowledge, was never seen in the act of killing or even attacking anyone else.

    Jack the Ripper is an inherently quiet killer. I think BS man cannot be the same as the Ripper. I choose to believe that BS man did not exist and that Schwartz is not a credible witness, a view I'm far from alone in holding.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Since its far from clear who killed Liz Stride, and its very probable that the man that killed Polly was the Ripper, who also killed Annie, then you have Albert as the most probable witness to have heard the Ripper.
    Or, at least, he heard the side-effects of what the Ripper was doing. I believe Cadosch only heard Annie's voice, if such it was, and even then only a syllable.

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  • DRoy
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    I think it can be fairly said that of all the witnesses only 2 provide stories in which a Ripper murder might have been taking place at that time....Israel with claimed eye witness testimony, and in the case of sound evidence, Cadosch.

    Since its far from clear who killed Liz Stride, and its very probable that the man that killed Polly was the Ripper, who also killed Annie, then you have Albert as the most probable witness to have heard the Ripper.

    I dont believe anyone actually saw him just before the act or during.

    Cheers
    Good point Micheal regarding Cadosch. Perhaps the best witness who didn't see something! I'll add to that list...Mortimer. By not seeing something then maybe a witness who apparently did see something would not be as valuable as some currently think which would make the original question a little easier to answer!

    Cheers
    DRoy

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  • DRoy
    replied
    Since Schwartz didn't describe Stride at all and only identifies her after seeing her body, I'm not sold he even saw her being attacked.

    Lawende didn't see Eddowes and apparently couldn't identify the suspect.

    Yet one of the two is most probable as being used in identity parades. Which one and why? Whichever one would have to be the best witness.

    Cheers
    DRoy

    Leave a comment:

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