Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello JTRS. Before midnight?

Cheers.
LC

[JTRSickert]

I know I am in the minority about this, but I personally do not believe that Liz Stride was a JTR victim. For several reasons:

1. it's the only crime to take place before midnight (it seems too early for him)
2. There are too many witnesses in the immediate area
3. Since the Socialist Jewish club was occupied next to the murder scene, I don't think Stride chose the spot to conduct business since many people were going in and out; I think she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time
4. No mutilation
5. It's the only murder to take place south of Commercial Road

Therefore, even though Israel Schwartz is the best witness to this crime, since I don't think he saw JTR, it makes it irrelevant. So, since I do believe Eddowes was a JTR victim, I think Joseph Lawende is the best witness. He admitted he only had a passing notice but he was able to provide a description of the man and he identified Eddowes by the clothes she was wearing.

[Hunter]

Is Cris Malone still going on about his merchant marine theory? Man, those theorists just never give us a break, do they.

LOL... Thanks for catching that, Tom. Theorists can be rather redundant at times, can't they?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Just a quick insouciant poll.

Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper, in your view?

Elizabeth Long aka Darrell - Saw man c. 5 ft 4, wearing deerstalker and dark clothing, prior to Annie Chapman's murder.

William Smith, City PC - Saw a man 5 ft 7, aged about 28, wearing a deerstalker and dark clothing, prior to Catherine Eddowe's murder.

Israel Schwartz - Saw a man 5 ft 5 with a moustache, broad build, aged about 30, wearing a black cap and dark clothing, prior to Elizabeth Stride's murder.

Joseph Lawrende - Saw a man of "middling" height, fair moustache, medium build, about 30, wearing a deerstalker and dark clothing with the look of a sailor, before Catherine Eddowe's

Sarah Lewis - saw a not tall, stout man wearing a wideawake hat before Mary Kelly's murder.

George Hutchinson - Saw a man 5 ft 6, with a slight moustache, aged about 34 -35, with a dark felt hat and dark clothing before the Mary Kelly murder.

Someone else - please post details.

PC Smith.

[Tom_Wescott]

Is Cris Malone still going on about his merchant marine theory? Man, those theorists just never give us a break, do they.

Hi Cog. I almost regret the part I played in so many people concluding Schwartz was a liar based on the evidence that he was possibly associated with the club. But i'm sure you'll agree, all evidence has to be put to the test. Like you, I can never be 100% certain about Schwartz, but his evidence does not conflict with our best witness (Fanny Mortimer), nor does anything about it not ring true. It seems, believe it or not, that he was probably telling the truth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Michael

Yes, and merchant marines are military in a support and spying fashion.

Erm sorry no...in UK parlance the "Merchant Marine" refers solely to the (large and in 1888 hugely predominant) body of merchant mariners...ie sailors who weren't employed either directly or indirectly by the Grey Funnel Line

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

No sour grapes

Hi (belatedly) Tom

P.S. Regarding Schwartz, I believe he was briefly a suspect himself, so that might be why he wasn't at the inquest. In any event, the police clearly wanted to keep him 'under wraps' so that might be reason enough.

As you know I was initially very sceptical of Schwartz, but have lately developed a distinctly soft spot for him. This is, therefore, manna to my ears. It doesn't mean I believe totally in his testimony, but I do have time for him...he COULD be the real thing...there is nothing, as far as I can see, in the evidence from other sources (both medical and witness-based) which conclusively and definitively excludes him...something discussed ad infinitum on a recent thread.

If he really saw what he said he saw, then I believe it's possible the police would have regarded him as their best witness...but of course it's equally possible that Lawende & Co, maybe on police advice, deliberately understated the extent of their own evidence...

Frustrating isn't it?

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

This goes back to what I was saying before...change your cap and you change your type. Having the "appearance of a sailor" based on a scarf or a cap does not a sailorman make. Good work, Wick.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom.

Yes, especially when a used peak cap can be bought in Petticoat Lane for a few pence. The very term "appearance of a sailor" reads like a subjective deduction, in other words, the person who came up with this, whoever it was, was not sure.
Therefore, what value is there in that phrase? - Zip!

[Tom_Wescott]

This goes back to what I was saying before...change your cap and you change your type. Having the "appearance of a sailor" based on a scarf or a cap does not a sailorman make. Good work, Wick.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

Hi Observer.
Do you mind if I provide the rest of Marshall's testimony?

[Coroner] Did he look well dressed? - Decently dressed.
[Coroner] What class of man did he appear to be? - I should say he was in business, and did nothing like hard work.
[Coroner] Not like a dock labourer? - No.
[Coroner] Nor a sailor? - No.
[Coroner] Nor a butcher? - No.
[Coroner] A clerk? - He had more the appearance of a clerk.
[Coroner] Is that the best suggestion you can make? - It is.

So Marshall is not saying his suspect looked like a sailor, but that he looked like a clerk.

Hi Wickerman

Point taken. I was aware Marshall had intimated that the man he saw with Stride had the appearance of a clerk. However, It seems as if the Coroner himself suggested to Marshall that the man had the appearance of a clerk, and Marshall agreed with him. The Coroner then suggested to Marshall whether the man spoke like a clerk, Marshall again answering in the positive.

[Coroner Did his voice give you the idea of a clerk? - Yes, he was mild speaking.

But, as you say he then asked Marshall if the man had the appearance of a sailor, to which he answered in the negative. Strange headgear for a clerk though wouldn't you think?

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

I havn't been following this thread, so forgive me if I have the wrong end of the stick here.

From the Daily Telegraph 2nd October, Liz Stride inquest. Coroner quizzing Marshall.

Coroner] Was he wearing a hat? - No, a cap.
[Coroner] What sort of a cap? - A round cap, with a small peak. It was something like what a sailor would wear.

Hi Observer.
Do you mind if I provide the rest of Marshall's testimony?

[Coroner] Did he look well dressed? - Decently dressed.
[Coroner] What class of man did he appear to be? - I should say he was in business, and did nothing like hard work.
[Coroner] Not like a dock labourer? - No.
[Coroner] Nor a sailor? - No.
[Coroner] Nor a butcher? - No.
[Coroner] A clerk? - He had more the appearance of a clerk.
[Coroner] Is that the best suggestion you can make? - It is.

So Marshall is not saying his suspect looked like a sailor, but that he looked like a clerk.

[Observer]

Ten out of ten Abby, no-one said anything about a sailor, not even Lawende.

This whole "appearance of a sailor" was an interpretation adopted by the police based solely on various witness sightings of a man in a peaked cap.

Hi Wickerman

I havn't been following this thread, so forgive me if I have the wrong end of the stick here.

From the Daily Telegraph 2nd October, Liz Stride inquest. Coroner quizzing Marshall.

Coroner] Was he wearing a hat? - No, a cap.
[Coroner] What sort of a cap? - A round cap, with a small peak. It was something like what a sailor would wear.

Regards

Observer

[The Good Michael]

And merchant marine.

Yes, and merchant marines are military in a support and spying fashion.

Mike

[Hunter]

I generally do not get involved in protracted debates, but rather offer information or make a point and move on. However, I believe some further clarification on the "appearance of a sailor" topic is necessary.

This whole "appearance of a sailor" was an interpretation adopted by the police based solely on various witness sightings of a man in a peaked cap.

The "appearance of a sailor" clause was specific to Lawende's description only, as it appeared in Swanson's Oct. 19th HO report on the murder of Elizabeth Stride and the release in the Police Gazette following the erroneous description and sketch appearing in the Daily Telegraph. In both instances, it would have been verbatim what was relayed through the various departments from the written statement taken during Lawende's interrogation. This was the way it was done. Swanson would not have added anything speculative on his part in this instance.

McWilliam did not mention this in his Oct. 27 HO report because it had already been released on the 19th and was at hand at the Home Office. In fact, McWilliam repeats none of Lawende's description in his HO report. He only explains the caveats surrounding the evidence of these three witnesses to give an idea to the HO as to what this evidence represented to the police and their investigation. Swanson does the same in his Nov. 6 HO report (not repeating the actual description) on the Met's involvement in the Eddowes murder investigation for the same reason.

I hope this clarifies police procedure and the chain of events regarding this matter.

[Nick Spring]

How do we know who did and didn't see Jack the Ripper?

Cheers John

Hi John,

We don't but working the witness sighting and times of death you get a better idea.

Lawende, Long, Cox, Hutchinson et al.

cheers

Nick