Prater/Lewis/Hutchinson/Cox

[Chava]

By the time Cox goes out again after 1.00, it's quiet at Kelly's. Prater hears nothing when she goes up at 1.30 am. However Kelly was singing earlier. I do think it's possible that BF has already killed her, I've made that clear in other threads. But the real problem with that is the time of death as established by the rigor. The fire might have kept rigor off for a little while maybe, but she'd been basically taken apart, and I think that would hasten it a little. So I can't see her being killed much earlier than 2-3.00 am. If Cox's evidence stands, Kelly takes BF in around 11.45 pm-12.00 am. I can't believe he waits for two hours before he kills her. That just doesn't make any kind of sense. So, much as I love the idea of BF, and even though I haven't completely ruled him out, I have to look at the possibility that she was killed by someone else later. Now she could have fallen asleep in the room, and someone came in on her. But by the same token, if Cox's time holds, she could have gone out. So then Prater wouldn't have heard her because she wasn't there. If she goes out and picks up one last trick, then that does jibe with Hutchinson's evidence that he saw her around 2.00 am. And Hutchinson's evidence works with the time of death estimate.

I don't believe a word he says and I think he's an attention-seeker at best. But it is possible, given all that singing and then silence, that Kelly does go out one last time. And if that's the case, Hutchinson could have seen what he says he saw--at least not the over-elaborate description of Mr A, but the actual event of the pickup. However the cops stopped believing him right quick. So something came to their attention after he delivered his statement. I"m not putting forward any theory here. Just considering possibilities...

[Wickerman]

However McCarthy was still in his store at that time, and we hear nothing about the noise from Kelly's room from him. True, he was on the other side of the court, and true, there was a wall between him and Kelly. But he was physically closer to her room than Cox was, and there were more walls between Cox and Kelly than there were between McCarthy and Kelly. Prater doesn't hear Kelly's serenade either. I don't have any answer for this. I think it's strange...

Well, as far as McCarthy's concerned the wall between Kelly and McCarthy was solid, no windows just a door.
Cox lived at the far end of a narrow (echoing?) court, with the added advantage of a window open to the yard via two broken panes of glass.
Perhaps sound carried via the path of least resistance.
I would have thought Prater would have heard Kelly, purely due to proximity..
It was supposed to be raining hard, rain can dilute noise to a certain extent.

Regards, Jon.S.

Im definately with Ben on that one.....cheers by the way Ben,...but the evidence such as there is is devoid of Mary being seen by a witness that holds the trust of the police after 11:45pm on November 8th. Any trip out after her singing stops and lights go out is, at the moment, disbelieved or inaccurate and without any supporting evidence.

What is clear is that the room was silent and dark before 1:30, using both Mary Ann and Elizabeth. What is not clear is when Blotchy left.

All the best.

[Ben]

Hi Chava,

The horrible thing, for me, is that all this evidence corroborates Kudzu's account, because it sounds like Kelly went out around 1-ish.

Not sure what evidence you're talking about here.

What evidence, other than "Kudzu's", suggests that Kelly went out again around 1.00ish?

Cheers,
Ben

[Chava]

I'm assuming they're doing all their timing by the Spitalfields Church Clock. did it chime through the night? I guess it must have. I would love it if Cox mistook the time and saw Kelly later in the evening, but I just can't come up with any way she could have done that, even drunk as a skunk, since it's hard to mix up 12 chimes with 1 chime.

The horrible thing, for me, is that all this evidence corroborates Kudzu's account, because it sounds like Kelly went out around 1-ish. Probably found someone to buy her a fish supper, and then went looking for the last trick of the night around 2.00 am. Picked him up and took him back. Or ran into someone she knew and took him back. The fact that she was unnoticed leaving the court doesn't necessarily mean she's quiet. There would have been a bunch of coming and going, so people just may not have paid attention. However, if Kudzu is credible, the cops didn't think so. And for sure we don't hear anyone say 'I saw Kelly that night' except Cox and Hutchinson. Which I do find strange, because she was clearly well-known in the quarter...

[Celesta]

Cox's room was at the end, apparently downstairs. She would be diagonally across from Mary's windows. If McCarthy was working mostly in the front of #27, would he have heard Mary better than Cox? I'm not sure.

The recent posts on the East End Photos & Drawings show just how tight these courts could be. I think people were living so close to each other that they didn't miss much of what was going on with their neighbors.

Elizabeth was hanging around the front of McCarthy's shop, and was outside, so if he didn't hear Mary singing then McCarthy may not have either.

After Cox left the last time, no one heard anything. Cox left shortly after one and Elizabeth climbed the stairs around 1:30 and there was no sound.

According to Cox, she lived at the last house at the top of the court. It was # 5 and I am assuming it was at the deepest part of the court. She says she heard Kelly singing when she first went in with Blotchy, and for some time after that. She went out around 12.05, and when she returned around 1.00 am, Kelly was still singing.

However McCarthy was still in his store at that time, and we hear nothing about the noise from Kelly's room from him. True, he was on the other side of the court, and true, there was a wall between him and Kelly. But he was physically closer to her room than Cox was, and there were more walls between Cox and Kelly than there were between McCarthy and Kelly. Prater doesn't hear Kelly's serenade either. I don't have any answer for this. I think it's strange...

Hi Chava,

Mary wasnt singing when Mary Ann went out again after 1, and Elizabeth isnt even in the archway until almost 1:30, so I think that shows Mary was singing until shortly after 1am, then stopped for the evening. The room was also dark by 1:30am, when Elizabeth climbs the stairs. Which means that if Marys stopping singing and dousing the candle were indications she was going back out....not Elizabeth who is coming into the archway about then, nor Mary Ann who just left, saw or heard her leave. Her and Blotchy...Im sure she wouldnt leave him in there by himself in the dark.

I think that addresses Liz, although I have no suggestion on why McCarthy heard nothing.

Cheers.

[Chava]

According to Cox, she lived at the last house at the top of the court. It was # 5 and I am assuming it was at the deepest part of the court. She says she heard Kelly singing when she first went in with Blotchy, and for some time after that. She went out around 12.05, and when she returned around 1.00 am, Kelly was still singing.

However McCarthy was still in his store at that time, and we hear nothing about the noise from Kelly's room from him. True, he was on the other side of the court, and true, there was a wall between him and Kelly. But he was physically closer to her room than Cox was, and there were more walls between Cox and Kelly than there were between McCarthy and Kelly. Prater doesn't hear Kelly's serenade either. I don't have any answer for this. I think it's strange...

[FrankO]

Earlier murders in this series produced no sound at all. Even supposing--as I do--that this murder may not have been part of the Ripper murders, I doubt Kelly would have had the time or the ability to do anything other than scream. 'Oh, murder!' is a long and very articulate thing to say in these circumstances while fighting for one's life.

Hi Chava,

Earlier murders didn't produce defensive wounds, however small, either. Or any clear arterial splashes of blood, or so much blood altogether. The defensive wounds as described by Dr Bond in his post-mortem report (on her right thumb and back of that hand) were so small that they actually suggest a 'defence' that didn't last longer than just a few seconds. Although I don't necessarily think the cry came from Kelly, just a few seconds is exactly the time it would take to cry something like "Oh, murder". Or at least, so it strikes me.

I'm much more interested in Cox's and Prater's entirely different experiences of Kelly that night. Cox has her drunk and singing for a hell of a long time. Prater doesn't see or hear a thing. Yet both are in close proximity to her and each other.

I agree it's quite odd, or at least striking, that their testimonies of around 1 a.m. are entirely different. If I had to venture a guess, that would be that Cox returned to the court some minutes before 1 a.m. and Prater some minutes after 1 a.m., leaving a gap of perhaps 5 to 10 minutes between the two, in which Kelly either finally quieted down and fell asleep or went out again.

All the best,
Frank

[Roy Corduroy]

For me its like the difference between a bus beheading,...

The Headless Busman. Where have I heard that before?

Just our luck, with the Kelly case, to have "a wretched specimen of East End womanhood" as our best witness!

I know, for me its like The Stinking Rose.....youd prefer not to smell like the garlic, but relieved that it is there regardless. I think "hag" was used in one article to describe her...so we can take it that "wretched specimen" may have referred only to her looks and/or means,..not her integrity or honesty. I mean out of the four choices, ones a fabricator by the police treatment of their tale 3 days after telling it,....ones asleep not long after 1:30am...well before the real action takes place,... one is someone who doesnt live in the court, may not know Mary Kelly, let alone which room she is in,.... and then along comes Mary Ann.

The wretched specimen who seems to live a bit like Mary Jane probably has to now....warming herself between trips out to work. Besides the obvious age and features difference, really....how are they that different? They are both in a sense "pathetic wretches"....one moreso physically. Mary Ann Cox may be a snapshot of what would become of Mary Jane had she lived into her forties, if she continued her downhill slide. I think thats worth considering when extending grief for her short life.....having her live to old age may have been equally horrifying. For me its like the difference between a bus beheading, or a slow death by cancer or Alzheimers...neither are good, but ones more merciful.

But Mary Ann Cox is the only person that anyone back then believed saw Mary Kelly for sure.

I dont mean to step on Bens contentions,...but I doubt whether Hutchinson was there at all myself. He lied about Astrakan....the whole thing, or just the horse head pin and spats...who knows.....but he lied, and came in especially to do so apparently.

Cheers mates.

[Ben]

Indeed, Gareth!

I'd love to know what the basis was for the "wretched specimen" observation, though. Did she have one wart too many, a corrosive cackle, or what? It strikes me as a rather Professor Higgins-esque put-down.

Cheers,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

The best witness to me is Mary Ann Cox.

Just our luck, with the Kelly case, to have "a wretched specimen of East End womanhood" as our best witness!

I find it interesting that the pardon offer specifically dealt with the idea that someone helped, "at any rate after the fact", and then we have Hutchinson coming in on Monday night ...just a tad late for the Inquest, damn,.....and he essentially adds a new suspect that is promoted to "Prime" by none other than Inspector A for almost 3 full days. That almost appears as the suggestion of the wording on the pardon November 10th indicated, that someone may have helped the killer "at any rate after the fact."

What the hell was that episode for if not perhaps a distraction for the Police? Yes...he may have known Sarah saw "someone", and if he was there like he said.......which would mean accepting the police opinion he was untruthful but assuming that he only lied about that part......why would I assume someone believed by men who interrogate criminals all day long as untruthful would say anything worth banking on....anyway, if he wanted to explain his presence based on Sarah's Wideawake Hat man, it seems to have worked.

The best witness, which is I think how this thread came about, to me is Mary Ann Cox. She can be used multiple times in the recreation of events, she lives in that court,...and her man seen with Mary Jane is to this day, the prime suspect on record as Marys killer, which he became after losing an Astrakan ruse.

Best regards all.

[Ben]

Hi David,

I agree. As I mentioned, the "something else" may well have taken the form of an egocentric desire to get one over on the cops and deflect suspicion in a false "Astrakhanian" direction at the same time. Given the concentrated nature of the locality, however, the possibility of a subsequent encounter with Lewis was a perilous one if an identification led to additional IDs with other witnesses. I'll hopefully be discussing this point in some detail a week on Sunday, if you tune into the Podcast.

All the best!
Ben