Prater/Lewis/Hutchinson/Cox

[DVV]

Hutchinson says he bent down to look Mr A in the face, and that suggests to me that he was fairly tall.

Hi Chava,
If Hutch was fairly tall, he could not be the man seen by Lewis. This would have been a big problem for the police. Why did Abberline accept Hutch's statement? There can be several reasons, but basically, Hutch must have matched "Wideawake Hat" 's description (ie: rather short and stout).
Take also Hutch's statement: Astrakhan Man covered his eyes with his hat, then looked at Hutch (an eye to eye encounter). It seems very unlikely that Astrakhan Man, having tried his best to hide his eyes, would have raised his head to look at Hutch.

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Just to bring another perspective on things: the most proliferate Swedish serial killer of all times, convicted of eight murders and admitting to a dozen or so more, a guy called Thomas Quick, only two days ago admitted what many criminologists have suspected all along - that he has never killed anybody. He had been making it all up.

The sad thing is that a celebrity prosecutor built his career on the Quick case (and, as you understand, managed to get the guy convicted for eight - 8! - murders that he in all probability is not guilty of).

Quick has sought the media limelight all along, and one can´t help but to think of old Hutch. I´m not saying that there is any built-in parallel here. I´m only saying that there are many odd creatures in the Lord´s creation!

The best!
Fisherman

[DVV]

But people do make stuff up for rewards, for notoriety, for God knows why... during the Ripper case, I believe several witnesses came forward just for the sake of it.

Sad, but constantly true.

Hi dlew,
you're right, except that Hutch, coming forward, put himself in a dangerous position: in Miller's Court on the murder's night, so he could be the Wideawake Hat suspect seen by Lewis. Which makes him quite unique in the ripper's case.

Amitiés,
David

[dlew919]

But people do make stuff up for rewards, for notoriety, for God knows why... during the Ripper case, I believe several witnesses came forward just for the sake of it.

Sad, but constantly true.

[Ben]

Thanks for the link, Stephen.

Surely the salient point here, though, is that the individual(s) "making stuff up" in the Shannon case were also involved in the crime? Unless I've misunderstood the article.

Regards,
Ben

[Stephen Thomas]

The idea that Hutch was just making stuff up to get reward money may not be too far fetched in the light of the bizarre Shannon Matthews case that's going through a British court at the moment.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Shannon-Matthews-Elasticated-Strap-Used-By-Karen-Matthews-And-Michael-Donovan-During-Kidnap/Article/200811315156372?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15156372_Shannon_Matthews%3A_Elasticated_Strap_Used_By_Karen_Matthews_And_Michael_Donovan_During_Kidnap

[Ben]

Broadshouldered Man, Sailor Hat Man,....and if you throw in Wideawake Man as Hutch as Jack, then they are certainly not the descriptions of one man

Ah no, big disagree, Mike!

Forget Hutch for a sec, and just consider Wideawake man in isolation - he could easily be the Blotchy man, the Church Passage man and broad-shouldered ruffian from Berner Street. Headgear aside (which could easily be changed), where's the dissimilarity in terms of age, build, complexion or even clothes?

Its a fact that BS Man, Sailor Man, and Blotchy Faced Man are three independant men

That isn't a fact at all, Mike. They could all very easily be one and the same man.

so not to take anything too personally, or make observations that are insulting or incorrect in retaliation

I agree in principle, and I'm as peaceful as Ghandi when I'm not insulted directly, but tend to do the polar opposite of "turning the other cheek" when I am.

All the best,
Ben

Quick question, though: Why does Hutchinson need to have been a better actor than Mansfield and "more versatile in his appearance than Dr Lao"?

Best,
Ben

Hi Ben,

I hope you dont mind that I left a few spaces above my first line.....I just wanted to be sure I dodged any shrapnel flying about.

I gotcha on your response, and dont disagree with most of what you suggest...perhaps just the notion that Kate's and Mary's killer wore the same shoes.

My comments above were based on the notion that the suspects seen with victims very close to the time of their death, ones that may well have been the womens killers due to that fact...respectively.....Broadshouldered Man, Sailor Hat Man,....and if you throw in Wideawake Man as Hutch as Jack, then they are certainly not the descriptions of one man...forget the clothing itself.

Its a fact that BS Man, Sailor Man, and Blotchy Faced Man are three independant men, and yet all 3 are the prime suspects in the deaths of the victims asociated with them. Being the last man seen in their company...2 within the womens last 15 minutes of life, and steps away from the murder site.

Its time in the thread to make sure everyone is offering counter-points productively, that everyone who posts remembers that most people will disagree with any post someone else makes...so not to take anything too personally, or make observations that are insulting or incorrect in retaliation....and that pretty well the bulk of the posters here have the salient facts somewhat in hand already.

My best to you Ben, all.

[Ben]

I wasn't slagging you off, Stephen.

It does rather rub salt in the wound, though, to hear you congratulate a post that included a rude and unprovoked insult on my intelligence.

As for "wreckless", I don't know why that happened, but it certainly wasn't intended as a slight. My guess is that I've been flitting back and forth between here and shipwreck message boards (Titanic, Lusitania and others), and had the word "wreck" at the forefront of my mind, culminating in the above clumsiness.

[Stephen Thomas]

Stephen - I doubt very much that you understood or even read Caz's post. No offence, bud.

Ooh, errr,

I've just been slagged off by Casebook's Mr. Monomania.

Why did you change Caz's 'reckless' to 'wreckless'?

That was what I asked you.

[Ben]

If he was the same height as Mr A, he would have had to crane his neck to see under the hat. Bending down wouldn't have done it.

But that's precisely what he said he did, Chava.

Stooping or bending would have been necessary if the two men were more or less the same height. According to the account the man's hat was pulled down over the eyes, with the negligible light source casting a shadow via the brim from above. This would have necessitated at least some degree of stooping if Hutchinson was of a similar height to the man.

I'm pretty certain that no account has Hutchinson as 5'11, and thus no reason to suppose that his height was incompatible with the witness sightings.

[Chava]

I disagree with that, Ben. If he was the same height as Mr A, he would have had to crane his neck to see under the hat. Bending down wouldn't have done it. He would have had to go through all kinds of contortions. Whereas, if he's fairly tall, that comment about bending down makes sense. I believe somewhere there's a description of Hutchinson that has him around 5'11". The whole story was probably manufactured out of whole cloth. But it had to have been vaguely credible for the police to believe him in the first place. So I'm thinking he was tall. And none of the other sightings has anyone near that height anywhere around.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

I see where you're coming from, but with respect, that's a different argument altogether. Since I believe Kelly and Eddowes to be victims of "Jack", I'd argue that any viable candidate for one murder is by extension a viable candidate for the others. I know you disagree, but I wouldn't say that the "canonical" angle is any more germane to Hutchinson's candidacy than it is to other suspects.

Quick question, though: Why does Hutchinson need to have been a better actor than Mansfield and "more versatile in his appearance than Dr Lao"?

Best,
Ben

[Ben]

That I agree with, Gareth.

A timely reminder and an excellent point.

[Ben]

Hutchinson says he bent down to look Mr A in the face, and that suggests to me that he was fairly tall.

No really, Chava.

It could also mean he lied about the encounter, so didn't properly consider the logistics of height etc, or that the light from above cast a shadow which was worsened by the presence of the man's hat, obliging him to bend down to get a better look, irrespective of height. It might suggest that he was no shorter than Astrakhan, but no reason to think he was taller.

All the best,
Ben