Prater/Lewis/Hutchinson/Cox

[Celesta]

Writerboy,

I used to wondered whether he might have been suspicious about the man with Kelly and took careful note of him. That seems to be the impression he tried to give. Later, I thought he might have spent Saturday stewing over whether Lewis could identify him, and coming up with a detailed description of a man just in case he needed one. Now, I think he probably knew she couldn't identify him. His motives are not so easy to discern. They've been discussed a great deal here.

[Writerboy]

Th Hutchison episode does fascinate me because it doesn't seem that anyone at the time, even him, seemed to mention just how alarmingly detailed the description was. He doesn't even seem conscious of it. In the BBC Jack the Ripper they comment that if he was interested in Kelly, "you would have a good look at a fella who was going off with a bird you fancied." But I wonder if this hints at another factor: was Hutchison taking such a detailed look at the stranger with Kelly because he thought he could have been the Ripper at the time? Surely at that point every man seen with a prostitute was gonna be looked at with suspicion and people would make a good mental note of what he looked like in case they should need to describe him to the police later. The time delay in him coming forward is odd but also perhaps if he was an attention seeker he'd have rushed to the police sooner?

I've always assumed that the reason the Kelly murder was so horrific was partly because the Ripper became more deranged with each killing and more confident, but also because this was the first time he'd had privacy without too much fear of discovery and so could spend a horribly long time at his grisly task. Perhaps he also stayed a long time because he was aware of Hutchison lurking outside.

[DVV]

Hi Macca



How about common sense? I think you'd find that using common sense most people would realise that Lawende, Harris and Levy were in actual fact telling the truth. Cox probably was, as were Prater and Lewis. Hutchinson in my honest opinion was not.

Observer

Indeed, Observer,

honesty and hutchinson are two different things.

Amitiés,
David

[Observer]

Hi Macca

So what logic are we going to evenly apply to all witnesses in the interests of parity?

How about common sense? I think you'd find that using common sense most people would realise that Lawende, Harris and Levy were in actual fact telling the truth. Cox probably was, as were Prater and Lewis. Hutchinson in my honest opinion was not.

Observer

[Hunter]

If I recall, Mrs. Prater was none the worse for wear that night herself... had to get up the next morning for a bit of "the hair of the dog" down at the local pub, and then went back to sleep.

[Celesta]

Hi Celesta...

Well...in terms of was he the killer? It's of some value but not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination.

But......in terms of his rank among the known suspects?......it puts him right up there.....because no amount of people hanging around outside.....or perceived dubious statements.....or bullies living next door but one.....there's no substitute for a man seeing going in on the night of the murder and not seen coming out. Surely that's just reasonable?

It's reasonable to me, Fleetwood. No one came forth to say they saw him leave, or that they saw her leave. No reports for Mary after 1:30. Basically, we have Hutch, whom many don't want to believe, and we have Cox's observations. Cox may have been estimating the time mostly, and it was a devilish night weatherwise due to the rain and the cold, so she was at least distracted by that. Then of course, Liz Prater, who seems doubtful to me because she changed her tale.

[Fleetwood Mac]

White Zinfindel or brandy, David, or a reasonable substitute. Sorry for the nightmare!

Seriously, I can see him urging her to sing, playing his 'funny little game.' It would likely be a new experience for him, since, to our knowledge, he's never killed a victim in a flat before. He can afford to take his time, so why not?


Too many bad movies, you think?

Deserves a thread of its own Celesta....how do people imagine his demeanour? See...I'd have him down as relatively sober and stealthy and serious....rather than a half-cut poor man's dance-hall act....but then that's just my perception based on no evidence whatsoever!

[Fleetwood Mac]

Thats providing Mary Ann Cox was telling the truth Mac, and Blotchy was a flesh and blood reality.

Observer

Granted.

So what logic are we going to evenly apply to all witnesses in the interests of parity?

a) Got the wrong night?

b) Attention seeking fantasist?

c) Covering for someone?

I'll go with those. Now if you can post something probable to suggest she conforms to one of the above then I'll go with you. But if you can't....then logic dictates that if we don't believe her then we can't believe anyone....which would render this whole gig an utter waste of time.

Objective logic mate.....rather than fitting the possible around a favoured suspect.

[Fleetwood Mac]

What keeps him on my personal radar, Fleet, is that nobody saw him leave. I know that doesn't mean a great deal. Obviously, he could have left at any time with no one seeing. Still one can hope...

Hi Celesta...

Well...in terms of was he the killer? It's of some value but not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination.

But......in terms of his rank among the known suspects?......it puts him right up there.....because no amount of people hanging around outside.....or perceived dubious statements.....or bullies living next door but one.....there's no substitute for a man seeing going in on the night of the murder and not seen coming out. Surely that's just reasonable?

[DVV]

That's a reasonable assumption to me, Cel.
Blotchy is a very good suspect, and will ever be.

I was chased by a quart can of beer all night.

Amitiés,
David

[Celesta]

White Zinfindel or brandy, David, or a reasonable substitute. Sorry for the nightmare!

Seriously, I can see him urging her to sing, playing his 'funny little game.' It would likely be a new experience for him, since, to our knowledge, he's never killed a victim in a flat before. He can afford to take his time, so why not?


Too many bad movies, you think?

[DVV]

Hi Fleetwood,

I can see him getting pleasure out of her doing this, knowing all the time he's going to kill her.

Cel, my dear Cel, that's absolutely nightmarish...
It's 3:27 now in Provence...how can I sleep ?

Amitiés, stupeur, tremblements,
David

[Observer]

Regarding Lawende, Harris, Levy, Fleetwood Mac posted

Hi Observer....

a) It could quite easily be speculated that the 3 men didn't see that which they claimed to see - and made it up or changed the details for whatever reason you or I wish to imagine. Ditto Hutchinson.

Regarding Blotchy as a suspect

All roads lead to Blotchy.

Thats providing Mary Ann Cox was telling the truth Mac, and Blotchy was a flesh and blood reality.

Observer

[Celesta]

What keeps him on my personal radar, Fleet, is that nobody saw him leave. I know that doesn't mean a great deal. Obviously, he could have left at any time with no one seeing. Still one can hope...

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Fleet,

Assuming he was not JTR, he might have wanted companionship for awhile, a congenial drinking buddy, as well as sex. It wouldn't be the first time, surely, a man might pay for that.

If he was her killer, then he might have been doing as I said before. Building his anticipation, prolonging it, before he killed her. It's a chilling thought.

Hi Celesta.....

Yes absolutely. Could have stayed/could have left - but in the room which is about as good as it gets in terms of known evidence.

There's a half decent chance he was the killer - but still a better bet than Hutchinson.