Can't get past Maxwell

[mpriestnall]

WARNING Graphic picture of MJK:

https://whitechapeljack.com/the-whitechapel-murders/mary-jane-kelly/

The eyes? Really?

[mpriestnall]

I believe very little of MJK's back story as told by Barnett or any of the people who gave details regarding what she (mjk) had told them either at the inquest or to the press.
I don't wish to infer any witness was deliberately lieing but more that what they were told should be taken with a grain of salt.
One of my bones of contention is that as far as I am aware nobody stated that MJK spoke with any sort of accent.

Helen x

FWIW I believe Kelly was born and raised in London but her parents were born elsewhere and so maybe her accent
was a bit mixed and hard to categorize definitely.

I think Kelly had a conventional life for a London working class female life up to the last 2 years, then encounters some kind of downfall, leaving her husband and then winding up in Pennington Street/Breezer Hill etc in 1886/1887.

She may have been working the streets, perhaps calling herself Kelly which was apparently a common name used by prostitutes. I don't believe she was a prostitute before 1886 and not an active prostitute in the last few months of
life for reasons I suggested earlier on this thread.

If she was calling herself Kelly and claiming to be Irish/Welsh, it may have been a way of hiding from her family in London.
Or rather as a way of stopping her cohorts from discovering her identity. Maybe she had an unusual surname?

The authorities then built on these foundations, IMHO, to give her a fake pre 1886 backstory.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of Kelly's Irish/Welsh backstory as been corroborated, despite numerous researchers, using the many digital resources that have been available for a long time now. I wonder why not?

[Parisi North Humber]

I believe the image of Mjk's face had been manipulated in antiquity because as you say there are no eyes present to recognise her by also if I remember correctly a member of the police force writing his memoirs (or at some point in the future) stated that the most awful thing about the scene was the dead woman's eyes staring at the onlooker as they came through the door (very loosely something along those lines). I'm sure and appreciate that I will be corrected quick sharp over the exact wording. I welcome any who can remind me of which officer mentioned her eyes.

Helen x

[Parisi North Humber]

Thank you mpriest. I concur regarding looking for MJK by strictly adhering to witness testimony is likely to be fruitless or at least diversionary. But what are we left with? I think perhaps there are grains of truth in the stories she told but what those grains are and how large are difficult to pin down.

Helen x

[mpriestnall]

Hi Martyn,

I've been giving this some consideration.

I've been with my partner for around fifteen years.

I'm sure that I would know his hair, eyes or hands anywhere.

His feet? Highly unlikely.

(Unless of course I had recently become bored, and amused myself by painting his toenails whilst he dozed in front of the telly, oblivious to my pedicure!!)

Thanks Ms D.

Judging by the picture I have linked to, I'm not convinced the eyes were in a better state to use for identification than the hands.

[etenguy]

Thanks Ms D.

Judging by the picture I have linked to, I'm not convinced the eyes were in a better state to use for identification than the hands.

Hi All

I don't think I would be able to use eyes or hands as identification for my partner, hair is a little more distinctive - but that's just me.

As for Barnett, I question his ability to ID by eyes so long after the murder. After about two hours post death corneal clouding begins, and the eyes become hazy and cloudy and progressively more opaque over time.

[GBinOz]

I believe the image of Mjk's face had been manipulated in antiquity because as you say there are no eyes present to recognise her by also if I remember correctly a member of the police force writing his memoirs (or at some point in the future) stated that the most awful thing about the scene was the dead woman's eyes staring at the onlooker as they came through the door (very loosely something along those lines). I'm sure and appreciate that I will be corrected quick sharp over the exact wording. I welcome any who can remind me of which officer mentioned her eyes.

Helen x

Hi Helen,

I believe you are thinking of Walter Dew's comments in his memoirs. There is a record of his exchange with Inspector Beck and his memoir comment here:

https://www.jack-the-ripper.org/mary-kelly-murder.htm

Cheers, George

[Abby Normal]

if you couldnt ID your lover by hair, eyes, ears, body hands feet etc or any combination thereof, then you didnt "know" your lover like you should lol. at least in the biblical sense. of course barnett could id Mary Kelly.

[Parisi North Humber]

Thank you GBinOz, much appreciated. Yes, it was Dew I was thinking of and I can imagine how that sight was emblazoned on his memory.

If Barnett's identification and Dew's recollections are correct this seems to point to two things, firstly the photograph of MJK has been altered prior to it's first publication, and secondly that amongst all the carnage JTR inflicted on that poor woman he surprisingly left the eyes alone, this despite his focus on organ removal. Did the eyes have some significance to him? Especially after the inverted vs he carved on Eddowes.

Helen x

[Ms Diddles]

if you couldnt ID your lover by hair, eyes, ears, body hands feet etc or any combination thereof, then you didnt "know" your lover like you should lol. at least in the biblical sense. of course barnett could id Mary Kelly.

Trust me, Abby!

If your wife had big gnarly man-feet with hairy toes like my partner, it'd be better for your sex life if you DON'T study them too closely!

[mpriestnall]

Hi All

I don't think I would be able to use eyes or hands as identification for my partner, hair is a little more distinctive - but that's just me.

As for Barnett, I question his ability to ID by eyes so long after the murder. After about two hours post death corneal clouding begins, and the eyes become hazy and cloudy and progressively more opaque over time.

Of course, individuals may have distinctive eyes, ears, or hair, but my opinions are obviously based on the general case.

Interesting info about the eyes post death.

[mpriestnall]

No doubt Barnett could identity MJK from the remains. But he knew it wasn't Kelly and deliberately gave a false identification for the same reasons he gave a false account of her backstory.

In my "Legend of Mary Jane Kelly" thread I pointed out there was 7 times he made assertions with "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" (or similar wording). Barnett Irish/Welsh backstory for MJK is constructed of various points that are deliberately non-verifiable. The very elements of a false "legend"

He also pointedly avoided explaining the reasons of how and why she supposedly came to London. Surely more important points to be related at the inquest than the various elements of her Welsh potted family history. This was avoided because these points would be readily proven to be false and the backstory disproven. Instead she just magically appeared in London.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Trust me, Abby!

If your wife had big gnarly man-feet with hairy toes like my partner, it'd be better for your sex life if you DON'T study them too closely!

He’s not called Frodo by any chance is he?

[Abby Normal]

Trust me, Abby!

If your wife had big gnarly man-feet with hairy toes like my partner, it'd be better for your sex life if you DON'T study them too closely!

LOL! I hear ya, but youd still be able to ID them!!

BTW off topic, but your big hairy feet comment reminded me of Hobbits of course, and I just finished the first season of Amazons Rings of Power series, which thank god included Hobbits! Great series!! Sorry but Im a total Tolkien Geek! : )

[Harry D]

BTW off topic, but your big hairy feet comment reminded me of Hobbits of course, and I just finished the first season of Amazons Rings of Power series, which thank god included Hobbits! Great series!! Sorry but Im a total Tolkien Geek! : )

Tolkien wouldn't have approved of this low-brow garbage.