Can't get past Maxwell

[etenguy]

It’s always been a difficult and contentious point Eten. I wouldn’t put money on any conclusion. Mistaken identity doesn’t seem likely. A later TOD seems circumstantially less likely but not impossible (I recall Bill Beadle proposing this at a Cloak And Dagger club meeting talk 15 or 20 years ago) And we have no solid reason to accuse Maxwell of lying. I don’t favour the ‘Kelly discovers the body then takes the opportunity to flee’ theory though even though it’s not totally impossible.

Re Barnett and Harvey - you are right, no-one mentions any issues, but Harvey leaves as soon as Barnett arrives and doesn't mention talking to him at all - just says good-bye to MJK and heads off. It may be she was simply giving them some privacy - but given the history we know, I think there was no love lost between them. I can easily imagine Barnett getting angry and reacting badly.

If you read some of my earlier posts, you will see I agree about the Kelly fleeing scenario - her behaviour makes that very unlikely in my view. If Maxwell is honest, then MJK was murdered later than the doctors predicted, if she was lying, hen it has no impact on time of death but begs the question 'why would she lie'. There is within this thread speculation about why she might lie ranging from providing an alibi for her husband through to the 5 minutes of fame argument. Neither of these seem likely to me based on the Abberline and Dew characterisation of Maxwell - and that if Mr Maxwell was jtr, he murders his neighbour late in his murder spree and normally you would expect later murders to be further from a home base.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As there is discussion of the fire and kettle I'm just going to throw this out there and ask if anyone else finds the seemingly clean right femur at odds with the bloody mess of the left femur?

I also note the sodden bedding sheet between MKJK's legs. The sheets don't look wet from blood but do look sodden, it could be by urine or stomach contents (unlikely In my opinion) but what if hot water had been employed on parts of her body? Jacky boy may have been even more inquisitive than we have given him credit for.

I know that the above will probably be shot down in flames (excuse the pun lol) but I have always thought of the cleanly stripped (and dare I say it blanched looking) right femur as an anomaly in comparison to the other butchered and bloodied body parts.


Helen x

Nothing wrong with those points Helen. The clean femur does stand out but I have no explanation for it. Someone else might have a suggestion though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Re Barnett and Harvey - you are right, no-one mentions any issues, but Harvey leaves as soon as Barnett arrives and doesn't mention talking to him at all - just says good-bye to MJK and heads off. It may be she was simply giving them some privacy - but given the history we know, I think there was no love lost between them. I can easily imagine Barnett getting angry and reacting badly.

If you read some of my earlier posts, you will see I agree about the Kelly fleeing scenario - her behaviour makes that very unlikely in my view. If Maxwell is honest, then MJK was murdered later than the doctors predicted, if she was lying, hen it has no impact on time of death but begs the question 'why would she lie'. There is within this thread speculation about why she might lie ranging from providing an alibi for her husband through to the 5 minutes of fame argument. Neither of these seem likely to me based on the Abberline and Dew characterisation of Maxwell - and that if Mr Maxwell was jtr, he murders his neighbour late in his murder spree and normally you would expect later murders to be further from a home base.

It’s certainly possible that an argument might have ensued after Harvey left and we can’t simply accept Barnet’s statement that they were on good terms. He might not have wanted the police knowing of any falling out considering what happened. Would Kelly have just stood by while he burnt the clothes though? We can’t know of course.

Is it possible that Maxwell, not knowing Kelly well, spoke to a woman who she thought was called Mary and then simply refused to admit that she’d made a mistake? I’m not particularly happy with that explanation either though Eten. Perhaps we’re being guilty of of imposing the thinking of a sane person onto the thought processes of a madman? Perhaps the killer might not have cared about the time of day or about being seen? Perhaps he knew that he’d be caught soon and took a fatalistic approach? Perhaps he intended to throw himself into the Thames?

[Wickerman]

...
My default position with witnesses is that they are telling the truth unless there is good reason to suppose otherwise.

Good to hear, I take the same position as the police do, statements are generally given in good faith, and should be treated as such unless there is good evidence to the contrary.

[Wickerman]

I have not been posting for the past week, I hate these cell phones. It took me 15 minutes to make that last post. I had to buy one just for this trip, so I'm try to learn and post at the same time.
It's 32 deg here in Luxor, Egypt and it's about 12:10, on my way to lunch.
If anyone knows who Zahi Hawass is?, he sat next to us at breakfast this morning.

[DJA]

Zahi Hawass - Wikipedia

[etenguy]

Perhaps he knew that he’d be caught soon and took a fatalistic approach? Perhaps he intended to throw himself into the Thames?

I wondered if he disgusted himself in saner moments and wanted to be stopped - but that is a bit of a romantic notion. I had never thought of this as supporting the candidacy of Druitt, but maybe you're right.

[spyglass]

I rule nothing in and I rule nothing out when it comes to most suspects and theories.

But I think it plausible that it wasnt kelly, Maxwell did see Kelly that morning.
kelly had returned from drinking all night / early morning, went back to Millers Court and found the carnage causing her to throw up outside as Maxwell witnessed.
For what ever reasons, she didnt hang around and moved on.....and according to Barnett, Mary believed she knew who the killer was.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wondered if he disgusted himself in saner moments and wanted to be stopped - but that is a bit of a romantic notion. I had never thought of this as supporting the candidacy of Druitt, but maybe you're right.

My Druitt link was only tongue-in-cheek but perhaps as the series went on the killer became less cautious? Maybe he did want it all to come to an end as you suggest or maybe he just came to believe that he was invincible or even that the police were on to him?

[richardnunweek]

If one takes oral comments from residents as true, We have Kelly saying she was going to 'make 'away with herself,'. Also I hear the killer is ripe in this area . One woman was told by Mary Kelly she dreamed that she was being murdered ., maybe I will be next ? It could imply she was part of a plot to not be around, Sounds very far fetched , but would explain a lot, as another report stated it was reported that she [ Kelly] had given her room for the night to another woman.? Regards Richard,

[Robert St Devil]

As there is discussion of the fire and kettle I'm just going to throw this out there and ask if anyone else finds the seemingly clean right femur at odds with the bloody mess of the left femur?

I also note the sodden bedding sheet between MKJK's legs. The sheets don't look wet from blood but do look sodden, it could be by urine or stomach contents (unlikely In my opinion) but what if hot water had been employed on parts of her body? Jacky boy may have been even more inquisitive than we have given him credit for.

I know that the above will probably be shot down in flames (excuse the pun lol) but I have always thought of the cleanly stripped (and dare I say it blanched looking) right femur as an anomaly in comparison to the other butchered and bloodied body parts.


Helen x

I see no reason why your comment should be incinerated, PNH, it’s a perceptive annotation. And, i think that it is indicative of the crime scene as a whole. Consider that much gore against the lack of The Ripper’s presence within the crime scene, and you might come to the conclusion that she exploded upon herself. What i mean to say in light of all of her grotesque mutilations, Helen, there are none of his bloody handprints marked on the wall; no report of his boot sludging through her blood; no bloody markers of a thumbprint on the kettle; hell, there was even a rager of a debate on this very forum a fews years back bc some thought The Ripper went out the window (meaning, there was no reports of blood on the doorknob indicating he left through it). With the exception of (possibly) his fingermarks on her right calf, The Ripper leaves the crime scene entirely, uh, sterile.

With that taken i to consideration, I’m not entirely amazed by the clean femur. I think he purposely bled her out along the far side of the bed so as to keep as much of her blood away from himself. And, i think that he had enough anatomical knowlwdge in order to know how to remove the muscle from her leg without making too much of a mess.

[Parisi North Humber]

Thank you Herlock and Robert St D.

As I said it's just another anomaly that has always stood out to me about the MJK murder site along with misplaced furniture and a missing knife (amongst other things). I don't have a theory but lots of queries and it's nice to read that I'm not the only one that finds the right femur being remarkably clean disconcerting.

P s. I think I'm in the minority that thinks the femur looks broken.
(Both of them).

Helen x

[Robert St Devil]

P s. I think I'm in the minority that thinks the femur looks broken.
(Both of them).

Helen x

No entirely certain what you mean by “both of them”, helen, i only make out the one femur in the photograph. However, if it was broken, it would have been in the report.

[DJA]

According to Bond "The right thigh was denuded in front to the bone, the flap of skin, including the external organs of generation & part of the right buttock. The left thigh was stripped of skin, fascia & muscles as far as the knee."

I cannot see the damage to the left thigh.

The top of the right femur could have been broken.

Bond had a history of alcohol and drug use.

[etenguy]

If one takes oral comments from residents as true, We have Kelly saying she was going to 'make 'away with herself,'. Also I hear the killer is ripe in this area . One woman was told by Mary Kelly she dreamed that she was being murdered ., maybe I will be next ? It could imply she was part of a plot to not be around, Sounds very far fetched , but would explain a lot, as another report stated it was reported that she [ Kelly] had given her room for the night to another woman.? Regards Richard,

Hi Richard

And did we not see the same with Eddowes stating she knew who the murderer was just before she was murdered, though I think she was confident she would be safe. Did either of them know or was this just back street bragging for attention.