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  • Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
    Hi. Look at this scenario
    Mrs Maxwell claims to have seen Mary Kelly alive , in daylight hours, This would tell the police that the victim was killed after the sighting, leaving any one with an alibi at that time not part of the investigation.. If Mrs Maxwell was protecting her husband , it would be because he may not have had that alibi during hours of darkness. and she may have had good reason to suspect. I cannot dismiss how the most discussed witness in the Jack the Ripper crimes , happened to live right opposite Milles court the the very house the letter to the police came from.one week earlier.
    Regards Richard
    is something that has crossed my mind before. Was her husband a real nasty piece of work and was out that night so she gives him an alibi. The letter - why would you send a fake ripper letter and give your own address?

    Comment


    • Click image for larger version

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      “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

      “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

      Comment


      • Research by Debra Arif:

        1891 listing for 14 Dorset St

        108 IRONS, William Head Widower M 32 1859 Carman
        Hoxton, London
        108 MUMFORD, Annie Servant Single F 23 1868 General Servant
        Spitalfield, London
        108 MUMFORD, Alice Daughter Single F 0 1891
        Spitalfield, London
        109 HARN, Samuel Head Married M 45 1846 Shoeblack
        Lambeth, London
        109 HARN, Charlotte Wife Married F 25 1866 Domestic Servant
        Lambeth, London
        110 KNIGHT, Henry Head Married M 38 1853 Saw Dust
        Bethnal Green, London
        110 KNIGHT, Louisa Wife Married F 40 1851
        Wiltshire
        111 SMITH, James Head Married M 41 1850 Genrl Dealer
        St Lukes, London
        111 SMITH, Louisa Wife Married F 40 1851
        Camberwell, London
        112 ANSON, W H Head Married M 23 1868 Docker
        Shoreditch, London
        112 ANSON, Sarah Wife Married F 19 1872 Laundress
        Hoxton, London
        113 JOYCE, Mary Anne Single F 12 1879
        Guildford, Surrey
        113 BROWN, Anne E Single F 35 1856
        London, City Road
        113 BUTLER, Florence Single F 17 1874
        Ireland Dublin
        113 SMITH, Helen Single F 24 1867
        Yarmouth, Norfolk


        There's a thread here:
        https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...trange-is-this
        “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

        “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

        Comment


        • Just as an aside - I am fascinated by the occupations listed in the last couple of posts - some of which I had never heard of. Some are more obvious than others:

          a saw dust
          a shoeblack
          a smacksman

          This site is nothing if not educational.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

            haven't seen a ref to blothcy to be fair, only quiet walking I've seen mentioned is that by Hutch referring to Aman.

            As for the time, are saying that midnight is night and 2-4am isn't? I think in this context night is probably just the hours of darkness night, not 12.01 suddenly becoming morning.
            I think night referred to the 11:45 pm sighting of Cox.
            Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
            M. Pacana

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

              yes, remember now having looked at it again. Doesn't sound like blotchy was heard talking to Kelly, although could assume that if they were walking together. I guess the issue is for blotch to be the killer is that you need to assume Hutch is lying, and I just don't see any reason for that. Whoever the police are referring to in that statement, bloth, Aman or some other lost witness account, opinion was Bury looked very like him. I wasn't trying to drag this off into a discussion about Bury, just thought it would be useful to know there is an account of police thinking that suggests an earlier (night) rather than later (morning after 8.30) T.O.D. As I said, the Maxwell problem remains.
              Dr. Bond also favored around 2 am..
              Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
              M. Pacana

              Comment


              • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                Hi Varqm

                Caroline Maxwell's account is consistent with:

                a) Mary Ann Cox who (in line with Maxwell's account of the MJK conversation) stated at the inquest:


                b) Mary Ann Cox who, while giving a lesser description, was nevertheless consistent with Maxwell's description - especially the no hat and no mention of an apron.


                Also, I believe the description matches the clothes found in MJK's room - but I cannot remember or find the reference for that.
                Cox said red pelerine and shabby skirt.
                Maxwell said velvet body maroon shawl and dark skirt Red pelerine and velvet body are different.

                Cox said MJK was intoxicated but that was 11:45 pm.When Maxwell met MJK ,MJK said she came from Ringers and had a drink.
                The police most likely checked Ringers if somebody resembling MJK drunk there at around 8 am..The maroon shawl and velvet body,maybe not as there was a fire.
                Last edited by Varqm; 10-04-2022, 03:02 PM.
                Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
                M. Pacana

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Varqm View Post

                  Cox said red pelerine and shabby skirt.
                  Maxwell said velvet body maroon shawl and dark skirt Red pelerine and velvet body are different.

                  Cox said MJK was intoxicated but that was 11:45 pm.When Maxwell met MJK ,MJK said she came from Ringers and had a drink.
                  The police most likely checked Ringers if somebody resembling MJK drunk there at around 8 am..The maroon shawl and velvet body,maybe not as there was a fire.
                  hi varq
                  i believe its the red pelerine and maroon shawl that are the same no?
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Losmandris View Post

                    As mentioned above I don't think we can entirely rely on the photo that we have. Do we know if the doctors stitched her face back together as in the case of Eddows or was this impossible because parts/strips? of the face had been actually removed?
                    Good question to which I don't know the answer. Perhaps someone else has thoughts on this?

                    Comment


                    • According to Mrs Prater ,she met Kelly around 9 pm the 8th Nov,, at the bottom of the passage, when they were about to go out to try their luck. Kelly was wearing a jacket and bonnet, Mrs Cox less then three hours later, saw Kelly allegedly not dressed in that attire, Either she lied, or Kelly had come back to her room to change down. I believe that Mary may have been wearing her jacket and bonnet when killed , and the killer burnt that clothing in the fire, Hence the Velvet remains of a jacket , and remains of a bonnet were found by the police, Who had at least believed initially that the killer burnt these because they were blood stained [The times Nov 12th] What a odd belief ? Was the killer seen with Kelly whilst she was wearing those garments , and the police would believe the person she was with would be the killer if they were blood soaked intact in the room.? Regards Richard.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Varqm View Post

                        Spitalfields was under Macdonald.MJK and Chapman was both under him.Thd difference was Chapman was killed outside,like in a street,the body can't be left there,so the police sent the body to Old Montague mortuary which then fell under Baxter.

                        MJK was one day of inquest,too late for Hutch.Maybe it was intentional on Hutch's part,he did not have to face the court and get fined for lying.

                        Lewis said he had known MJK for 5 Years,She came to London 4 yrs previously and to Spitalfields barely 2 years.
                        The case for for the jurisdiction has been discussed many times by more knowledgeable case students than me. It's ironic, at least, that
                        Macdonald himself claimed jurisdiction due to where body lay and so it could be said he was arguing against himself!!!???

                        Hutch claimed to have spoke to a policemen and presumably subsequently ignored. Maybe the higher up police didn't want Hutch to appear at the inquest so that AM's identity wouldn't be placed on record and subsequently publicized.

                        I don't believe the Barnett supplied backstory for MJK and that I believe she was born in London and died outside the capital. Therefore I don't see a problem with Lewis claiming he knew MJK for 5 years.
                        Last edited by mpriestnall; 10-04-2022, 05:42 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Can someone help me with the following 2 questions please?

                          Q1. Did Hutch say for how long she knew Kelly and if so, for how long?

                          Q2. Does anyone know where (or can suggest how I can find out) where George William Topping Hutchinson was at that time?

                          Just following up a long shot.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Varqm View Post

                            Cox said red pelerine and shabby skirt.
                            Maxwell said velvet body maroon shawl and dark skirt Red pelerine and velvet body are different.
                            Not so different depending on shade of maroon - some look red especially at night. Also both said she was not wearing a hat. a velvet garment was found in MJK's room, part of the burnt clothes. I think adding all this together, it would be an unusually happy coincidence for all these things to tie up.

                            Originally posted by Varqm View Post
                            Cox said MJK was intoxicated but that was 11:45 pm.When Maxwell met MJK ,MJK said she came from Ringers and had a drink.
                            The police most likely checked Ringers if somebody resembling MJK drunk there at around 8 am..The maroon shawl and velvet body,maybe not as there was a fire.
                            Exactly - Cox said MJK was three sheets to the wind the night before the murder. Maxwell said that MJK told her she had been drinking heavily Thursday night and had gone out for the hair of the dog Friday morning. This all ties up.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
                              Can someone help me with the following 2 questions please?

                              Q1. Did Hutch say for how long she knew Kelly and if so, for how long?

                              Q2. Does anyone know where (or can suggest how I can find out) where George William Topping Hutchinson was at that time?

                              Just following up a long shot.
                              Three years.

                              Topping was not George Hutchinson.Hutch was a sailor.
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                                Three years.

                                Topping was not George Hutchinson.Hutch was a sailor.
                                Hi DJA, You maybe right, but I have some weak indirect evidence supporting GWTH being the right Hutch. It's not a big deal. Just an idea that
                                occurred to me.

                                I remember "Lechmere" posting some Census data plus Electoral Register data re GWTH sometime ago. I'll try and find that to see what I can see.

                                And thanks for the "3 years".

                                Martyn

                                Comment

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