Originally posted by Tecs
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Can't get past Maxwell
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi eten
agree hard to beleive Maxwell confused the day as it was that very morning and she tied it into other activity she was doing that morning. and hard to beleive she got the wrong mary (which I beleived to be the case prior) when she describes what Mary was wearing accurately. shes at the inquest and does not back down.
and yet all other evidence points to a night time murder. Marys high activity meeting with men/suspects, lots of witnesses who saw and heard her up and about, the cries of murder, the large hot fire with burnt clothes. and on the other side-the lack of/tight times for a morning daylight murder, the lack of witnesses who saw her up and about, her being ill etc.
Its a conundrum for sure.
If anything is fishy with maxwell I again come back to a question I posed earlier-did not a ripper hoax letter come from Maxwells address?
I believe the lurking man seen by Lewis at 2:30 am was JTR trying to get in Mary's room,but that's another story.Last edited by Varqm; 09-26-2022, 04:52 PM.Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
M. Pacana
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Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post
Yeah, a letter from Miller's Court certainly rings a bell with me too.
I'll have a look through "Letters from Hell" when I get chance to see if I can find it....."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by etenguy View Post
Ms Diddles
Good to see you here.
You are right - the idea that someone else was killed cannot be lightly dismissed if we accept Maxwell is accurate. But then some other behaviours have to be considered:
a) why did Mary wander the streets and talk to Maxwell if she was taking the opportunity to abscond - she would surely want people to think her dead.
b) why did Barnett identify the corpse as MJK, was he involved in a cover up
c) why did the police not suppress Maxwell's evidence - presumably means no police involved in the cover up
For me, MJK's reported behaviour that morning is the strongest indicator that she was not planning to abscond and hope people thought the body found was her. I think it more likely she was killed later than first thought. But it is just my view as I see the evidence currently - I do not dismiss other possibilities.
Yep, those are indeed the issues which are thrown up if one surmises that the Miller's Court victim is not the person known as MJK!
They are also issues which I have been contemplating for some time since I realised that I lean quite heavily towards Maxwell's credibility (and more lightly away from later ToD and towards the victim not being MJK).
Of course, I would love to say that I have composed a brilliant and incontrovertible theory which ticks all the boxes and explains everything with perfect clarity.
You'll be unsurprised to learn that nothing could be further from the truth!!!!
I don't personally see an official cover up or conspiracy here.
I'm with Tecs in that a see it as a seized opportunity taken by Mary on the spur of the moment, perhaps in collaboration with Barnett.
I'm not saying that I believe this definitely happened, but I regard it as a genuine possibility.
I find myself unable to "get past" Maxwell too!
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What I find most odd with Caroline Maxwell's statement is the following:
Mary had lived at Miller's Court for 10 months. Caroline Maxwell lived at 26 Dorset Street and surely would have known the residents in the court at almost any given time, due to the proximity.
At the inquest, Caroline Maxwell stated this:
I knew the deceased for about four months.
And this:
And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.
So, according to Maxwell, Mary lived in Miller's Court for 6 months without Maxwell knowing about it even though Miller's Court was entered by the passageway running through 26 and 27 Dorset Street.
And, Maxwell stated they spoke twice in the 10 months Mary lived at Miller's Court, yet according to Maxwell they were on pretty friendly terms, e.g. during their brief exchange in the morning Mary supposedly called her Carrie.
In addition, Maxwell stated she knew enough about Mary to know that it was unusual for Mary to be up and about at that time.
It follows that Maxwell paints a picture of knowing a lot about Mary, i.e. on friendly terms, knowing what time Mary was usually up and about around Dorset Street, knowing Mary "by being about in the lodging house"; yet in Maxwell's own words she didn't know that Mary existed in the first 6 months she lived at Miller's Court and only ever spoke to her twice in 10 months.
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Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View PostWhat I find most odd with Caroline Maxwell's statement is the following:
Mary had lived at Miller's Court for 10 months. Caroline Maxwell lived at 26 Dorset Street and surely would have known the residents in the court at almost any given time, due to the proximity.
At the inquest, Caroline Maxwell stated this:
I knew the deceased for about four months.
And this:
And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.
So, according to Maxwell, Mary lived in Miller's Court for 6 months without Maxwell knowing about it even though Miller's Court was entered by the passageway running through 26 and 27 Dorset Street.
And, Maxwell stated they spoke twice in the 10 months Mary lived at Miller's Court, yet according to Maxwell they were on pretty friendly terms, e.g. during their brief exchange in the morning Mary supposedly called her Carrie.
In addition, Maxwell stated she knew enough about Mary to know that it was unusual for Mary to be up and about at that time.
It follows that Maxwell paints a picture of knowing a lot about Mary, i.e. on friendly terms, knowing what time Mary was usually up and about around Dorset Street, knowing Mary "by being about in the lodging house"; yet in Maxwell's own words she didn't know that Mary existed in the first 6 months she lived at Miller's Court and only ever spoke to her twice in 10 months.
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Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View PostCuriously, Liz Prater had lived in the court for about 4 months"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by Harry D View Post
That is correct, Abby. The Ripper case has quite a few eerie coincidences like this.
The number of sub mysteries in this case (and the torso cas) is astonishing."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Im wondering if the mystery of maxwell getting marys clothes right might not be that what Mary wore was fairly common and that perhaps its still a case of mistaken ID? how common was a shawl, bodice and skirt but no hat? perhaps that was what Prater was wearing and it was prater who maxwell thought was kelly??
Did Prater ever stay at maxwells lodging house?
I dont know just thinking out loud."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
Comment
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Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View PostWhat I find most odd with Caroline Maxwell's statement is the following:
Mary had lived at Miller's Court for 10 months. Caroline Maxwell lived at 26 Dorset Street and surely would have known the residents in the court at almost any given time, due to the proximity.
At the inquest, Caroline Maxwell stated this:
I knew the deceased for about four months.
And this:
And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.
So, according to Maxwell, Mary lived in Miller's Court for 6 months without Maxwell knowing about it even though Miller's Court was entered by the passageway running through 26 and 27 Dorset Street.
And, Maxwell stated they spoke twice in the 10 months Mary lived at Miller's Court, yet according to Maxwell they were on pretty friendly terms, e.g. during their brief exchange in the morning Mary supposedly called her Carrie.
In addition, Maxwell stated she knew enough about Mary to know that it was unusual for Mary to be up and about at that time.
It follows that Maxwell paints a picture of knowing a lot about Mary, i.e. on friendly terms, knowing what time Mary was usually up and about around Dorset Street, knowing Mary "by being about in the lodging house"; yet in Maxwell's own words she didn't know that Mary existed in the first 6 months she lived at Miller's Court and only ever spoke to her twice in 10 months.
anyway knowing someone for four months and speaking to them twice dosnt really seem like she knew her that well, especially if mary had lived their for six months prior(without maxwell knowing about her) and ten months total. again I ask-did she mistake prater for Mary?"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
yes some have posited in the past that maxwell thought Prater was Kelly
Prater and Maxwell both attended the inqiest though, so surely Maxwell would have realised her mistake at that point had she originally thought Prater was Mary?
It's all a conundrum for sure!
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