Albrook and Harvey - can't both be true

[Fleetwood Mac]

You may find it reasonable to suppose that he would, but one cannot on the basis of what was not said.

You're mistaken.

Barnett stated: "one woman".

It is you who is claiming that which he never stated, i.e. two women were there.

[MrBarnett]

Not when it has been dark for approx. two and half hours.

As said, there is no universal agreement on when evening begins and ends, and so it is subjective to a degree.

Google: "when does evening begin and end", and on the first page you will get a variety of interpretations.

In Barnett's mind/association with time, he clearly has a time of the day where it has been dark for approx. two and a half hours as being the evening. So, when does the evening begin for him? You have of course the phenomenon of "late afternoon" to contend with.



Which is not what Maria Harvey stated at the inquest.

Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ? - Yes. I said

7.30 is evening as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps it’s a Barnett thing. :-)

Yes, I had forgotten that about Harvey.

[MrBarnett]

We have the same juxtaposition with the words of Bowyer in this case. He told the inquest he saw Kelly Wednesday afternoon, yet in the press he says Wednesday evening.
The words of John Kelly in the Eddowes case are another example, Eddowes had been locked up in the 'afternoon', and in another statement he says 'evening'.

Truth is, in the late 19th century afternoon & evening meant the same, not like today.
There are numerous examples in the 19th century press for anyone who chooses to look.

I don’t think they ever meant exactly the same thing. 1.00 was never the evening, but 6.00 might have been thought of as afternoon in midsummer and evening in December.

[Fleetwood Mac]

7.30 is evening as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps it’s a Barnett thing. :-)

Yes, I had forgotten that about Harvey.

No bother.

During the summer months I would agree with you that 7.30pm is the evening.

During the winter months I wouldn't agree.

But, my interpretation of when evening ends is not the only answer. As I say, google it and on the first page you well get a wide variety of interpretations on when evening begins and ends.

[Varqm]

Lizzie Albrook and Kennedy were the same,so-called witnesses who told the same story as the real witnesses, as the gossip ran along,but only,generally, the times differ.A reporter warned about this,on the next column there was an interview of Prater-if I remember right,I forgot the name of the paper. The Kelly inquest was one day,Barnett and Harvey were there,there was no change or objections to the story of Barnett seeing the woman.Barnett did not know Harvey well I think.

[MrBarnett]

No bother.

During the summer months I would agree with you that 7.30pm is the evening.

During the winter months I wouldn't agree.

But, my interpretation of when evening ends is not the only answer. As I say, google it and on the first page you well get a wide variety of interpretations on when evening begins and ends.

I really don’t need to Google it. Unless there’s a website where it’s discussed by old Cockneys.

[MrBarnett]

Evening all!

[MrBarnett]

Two for the price of one!

[Fleetwood Mac]

Evening all!

Aye, this would suggest that the interpretation of evening in Victorian times included approx. two and a half hours after it was dark.

I've found this social history site with an article of Victorian etiquette.

Victorian Etiquette - The Social Historian

The article includes: evening parties begin about nine o’clock in the evening and end about midnight or later.

So, the question remains the same: when did evening begin for Joe Barnett? Is it possible that Joe Barnett considered a second visit to be in the evening but a first visit to not be in the evening?

[Wickerman]

I don’t think they ever meant exactly the same thing. 1.00 was never the evening, but 6.00 might have been thought of as afternoon in midsummer and evening in December.

Exactly, they never spoke of 1:00pm as evening, but 6:00pm was either afternoon or evening.
Here's a snippet mentioning 8:00 in the "afternoon". Which is clearly evening in our view.



Here's one that also shows the context - their day was made up of 12 hours of "Forenoon", and 12 hours of "afternoon".
From 8:00 in the forenoon, to 8:00 in the afternoon.



We even see timetables showing the same terminology.
8:16 and 9:31 - in the "Afternoon".



Fascinating trivia.

So, we can see that when Harvey said "afternoon", yet Barnett said "evening", they likely meant the same time of day. Especially as Harvey mentioned Barnett by name, and he was one of the witnesses present.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Exactly, they never spoke of 1:00pm as evening, but 6:00pm was either afternoon or evening.
Here's a snippet mentioning 8:00 in the "afternoon". Which is clearly evening in our view.



Here's one that also shows the context - their day was made up of 12 hours of "Forenoon", and 12 hours of "afternoon".
From 8:00 in the forenoon, to 8:00 in the afternoon.



We even see timetables showing the same terminology.
8:16 and 9:31 - in the "Afternoon".



Fascinating trivia.

So, we can see that when Harvey said "afternoon", yet Barnett said "evening", they likely meant the same time of day. Especially as Harvey mentioned Barnett by name, and he was one of the witnesses present.

'Very interesting that, Jon. 'Fascinating that they thought 8pm or 9pm could be termed the afternoon.

What I'm wondering here is that the time of the day is driven by work hours to a degree. We tend to think the evening begins when standard work hours finish.

It's possible the Victorian interpretation of afternoon and evening was due to their work patterns.

[Wickerman]

'Very interesting that, Jon. 'Fascinating that they thought 8pm or 9pm could be termed the afternoon.

What I'm wondering here is that the time of the day is driven by work hours to a degree. We tend to think the evening begins when standard work hours finish.

It's possible the Victorian interpretation of afternoon and evening was due to their work patterns.

I couldn't say.
I've been through the BNA and failed to find "evening" used prior to say 5:00pm, it's normally "afternoon", but certainly after 6:00pm we can read "evening" or "afternoon" as interchangeable terms right up until midnight.

The important thing to take home here is, both Bowyer & John Kelly have been accused of lying by modern theorists because they used both terms when speaking about the same incident. This is 'our' failing, not their's. It is incumbent on modern researchers to learn the correct terminology in use at the time, not impose our modern understanding on anything they said.

All that said....
We can't be sure if Harvey was lying about something she claimed, but, the issue of "afternoon" & "evening", is not the place to look for evidence of any lies.

[MrBarnett]

Finding examples from nautical almanacs and from the Highlands of Scotland isn’t really helpful.

‘Afternoon’ starts at mid-day and continues until the ‘evening’, which is judged by when darkness falls. It’s imprecise and is obviously affected by the time of year.

At least that’s my take on it.

[Wickerman]

Ah, you are looking for a more civilized example, one to do with polling hours?

"Eight o'clock in the afternoon".




Or, perhaps you would like some official memo from a palace?

8:00 in the "afternoon".




Another example from the more civilized members of society?

8:30 in the "afternoon".

[Abby Normal]

Maria Harvey can't have been the 'other woman' who Kelly took in, as that was the week before. It was that incident which made Barnet decide to leave Kelly on the previous Tuesday (30th Oct.)
Barnet was only there from 7:30 -7:45.
Albrook claimed to have left Kelly about 8;00 pm.

Barnet did say the female who was with Kelly, and left before him, was someone who lived in the court, Albrook, claimed to live in the court.

Harvey did describe the various clothing she left with Kelly, so that seems genuine.

It's always been a puzzle, no-one needs to be lying, timing was often vague as we all know.

Harvey says she arrived at Kelly's, about 7:00pm.

So, there is an hour between Harvey & Albrook.

hi wick
isnt harvey corroborated by the clothes found in marys room?