Albrook and Harvey - can't both be true

[Fleetwood Mac]

Agreed.



I have looked in the past to see if Harvey says where she lived before she moved in with Kelly.

If it had been another room Millers court then that would justify Barnett saying the female visitor "lived in the court", as he would have moved out (on 30th) before Harvey must have moved out of her room, and into Kelly's.
Meaning, Barnett wouldn't have known Harvey now lived in New Court.

Was Harvey ejected from another room in Millers Court?

I couldn't find any mention of a previous address for Harvey.

Just trying to allow for all options.

'Lots of possibilities, Jon.

Press reports stated that Lizzie Albrook lived in the court, so certainly a point in her favour.

[MrBarnett]

Agreed.



I have looked in the past to see if Harvey says where she lived before she moved in with Kelly.

If it had been another room Millers court then that would justify Barnett saying the female visitor "lived in the court", as he would have moved out (on 30th) before Harvey must have moved out of her room, and into Kelly's.
Meaning, Barnett wouldn't have known Harvey now lived in New Court.

Was Harvey ejected from another room in Millers Court?

I couldn't find any mention of a previous address for Harvey.

Just trying to allow for all options.

A 6-year-old boy named John Harvey was injured in a traffic accident in Commercial Street in June, 1888. He was taken to the London Hospital where his address was recorded as 2, Dorset Court, Commercial Street. There doesn’t appear to have been a Dorset Court in Spitalfields, but that was the name given to Millers Court by some newspapers in the aftermath of the Kelly murder.

In addition, Debra Arif found an 1887 (I think) workhouse admission for a laundress/washerwoman named Maria Harvey who had two sons, one a John of the same age as the boy involved in accident. The address this Maria Harvey gave was 12, Station Place - a very interesting address.

[GBinOz]

Even though she is quoted in the press and Walter Dew refers to her in later years, there is doubt about whether Lizzie Albrook was a real person. She has an age and address quoted and her story more closely matches Barnett's account than Harvey's. Also Barnett does not refer to the female visitor by name, which I would expect if Maria Harvey was the visitor.

If she was a journalist invention, then mystery solved, but presumably the journalist would have to have known the Barnett story. Given the input of the statement, it would seem a pointless invention, though some argue it was simply to make MJK a more tragic figure. Although widely reported, it seems to be a syndicated story.

Does anyone know if there is there any record of Lizzie Albrook after 9 Nov 1888?

Cheers, George

[Kattrup]

In my opinion, the testimony is consistent and unproblematic.
What might be causing difficulty is the fact that the women do not refer to one another. To some, that makes it appear as if only one woman was present.

However, the testimony about both women mesh perfectly. Both were present with MJK, one left at 18.55, the other shortly before 20.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/crit...144#post513144

[Fleetwood Mac]

In my opinion, the testimony is consistent and unproblematic.
What might be causing difficulty is the fact that the women do not refer to one another. To some, that makes it appear as if only one woman was present.

However, the testimony about both women mesh perfectly. Both were present with MJK, one left at 18.55, the other shortly before 20.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/crit...144#post513144

I would say your interpretation is unlikely. This is Joseph Barnett's exchange with the coroner:

Was there any one else there on the Thursday evening ? - Yes, a woman who lives in the court. She left first, and I followed shortly afterwards.

It is almost inconceivable that Barnett meant anything other than he saw one woman.

[Fleetwood Mac]

it suggests Lizzie Albrook was most likely the woman with Joe and Mary

The only interpretation from the statements that may tie everything up nicely is this: Barnett visited twice, both times there was only one woman in the room.

The coroner/Barnett exchange was this:

Was there any one else there on the Thursday evening ? - Yes, a woman who lives in the court. She left first, and I followed shortly afterwards.

Barnett may have associated "Thursday evening" with later in the day and so when asked about Thursday evening he responds with the later of his two visits in mind.

Bear in mind that there is no agreed upon exact time when evening begins.

Bear in mind also that when both women supposedly visited, it will have been dark, i.e. night time (on the 8th November it was dusk by 5pm). Yet, we have the coroner and Barnett talking of 7pm to 8pm as evening.

Clearly, interpretation of "evening" is subjective, and they didn't necessarily see it as we see it today. When asked about the "evening", in Barnett's mind/association with time that may have meant the later time of the two occasions he called.

[Kattrup]

I would say your interpretation is unlikely. This is Joseph Barnett's exchange with the coroner:

Was there any one else there on the Thursday evening ? - Yes, a woman who lives in the court. She left first, and I followed shortly afterwards.

It is almost inconceivable that Barnett meant anything other than he saw one woman.

He did not mean anything else, because the other woman left as he arrived.

[Wickerman]

A 6-year-old boy named John Harvey was injured in a traffic accident in Commercial Street in June, 1888. He was taken to the London Hospital where his address was recorded as 2, Dorset Court, Commercial Street. There doesn’t appear to have been a Dorset Court in Spitalfields, but that was the name given to Millers Court by some newspapers in the aftermath of the Kelly murder.

So, we have choices between; 2 Dorset St., 20 Dorset St. & 2 Millers Court, though if Harvey moved in with Kelly with one young boy it at least might offer justification for the confused press report of Kelly having a boy staying with her.

[MrBarnett]

So, we have choices between; 2 Dorset St., 20 Dorset St. & 2 Millers Court, though if Harvey moved in with Kelly with one young boy it at least might offer justification for the confused press report of Kelly having a boy staying with her.

Or 2 New Court, I suppose.

[MrBarnett]

The only interpretation from the statements that may tie everything up nicely is this: Barnett visited twice, both times there was only one woman in the room.

The coroner/Barnett exchange was this:

Was there any one else there on the Thursday evening ? - Yes, a woman who lives in the court. She left first, and I followed shortly afterwards.

Barnett may have associated "Thursday evening" with later in the day and so when asked about Thursday evening he responds with the later of his two visits in mind.

Bear in mind that there is no agreed upon exact time when evening begins.

Bear in mind also that when both women supposedly visited, it will have been dark, i.e. night time (on the 8th November it was dusk by 5pm). Yet, we have the coroner and Barnett talking of 7pm to 8pm as evening.

Clearly, interpretation of "evening" is subjective, and they didn't necessarily see it as we see it today. When asked about the "evening", in Barnett's mind/association with time that may have meant the later time of the two occasions he called.

How would you interpret evening? 7.30 is in the evening as far as I’m concerned. Harvey said she was with Kelly all afternoon, didn’t she? So she had probably have left before Barnett arrived.

[Wickerman]

It's also worth noting, more for other discussions than this, that in the official record Barnett says he saw her between 7:30 - 7:45, yet we then read, "I was with her about one hour".

Yet in the press we have the correct words - "I was there for about a quarter of an hour".

The official version is not always the correct version.

[Fleetwood Mac]

He did not mean anything else, because the other woman left as he arrived.

I for one see your interpretation as unlikely.

Barnett was specifically asked was there anyone else there. Barnett stated a woman.

Had Barnett seen Harvey, reasonably he would have stated two women (and elaborated upon that) given he was asked was there anyone else there (on Thursday evening).

[Wickerman]

How would you interpret evening? 7.30 is in the evening as far as I’m concerned. Harvey said she was with Kelly all afternoon, didn’t she? So she had probably have left before Barnett arrived.

We have the same juxtaposition with the words of Bowyer in this case. He told the inquest he saw Kelly Wednesday afternoon, yet in the press he says Wednesday evening.
The words of John Kelly in the Eddowes case are another example, Eddowes had been locked up in the 'afternoon', and in another statement he says 'evening'.

Truth is, in the late 19th century afternoon & evening meant the same, not like today.
There are numerous examples in the 19th century press for anyone who chooses to look.

[Kattrup]

I for one see your interpretation as unlikely.

Barnett was specifically asked was there anyone else there. Barnett stated a woman.

Had Barnett seen Harvey, reasonably he would have stated two women (and elaborated upon that) given he was asked was there anyone else there (on Thursday evening).

You may find it reasonable to suppose that he would, but one cannot on the basis of what was not said.

[Fleetwood Mac]

How would you interpret evening?

Not when it has been dark for approx. two and half hours.

As said, there is no universal agreement on when evening begins and ends, and so it is subjective to a degree.

Google: "when does evening begin and end", and on the first page you will get a variety of interpretations.

In Barnett's mind/association with time, he clearly has a time of the day where it has been dark for approx. two and a half hours as being the evening. So, when does the evening begin for him? You have of course the phenomenon of "late afternoon" to contend with.

So she had probably have left before Barnett arrived.

Which is not what Maria Harvey stated at the inquest.

Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ? - Yes. I said