John Richardson

[Ms Diddles]

It would be a lucky find for Jack, but plausible. Maybe she bumped into him as she left the passage just outside number 29 (which was known to some people to be quiet place for a kip) and he was thanking Santa Claus as she told him she knew of a quiet little place just back where she'd been where business could be conducted?
As theories go it's not the weirdest, or even slightly verifiable..].

Agreed, A.P.,

There is of course absolutely no evidence to support this theory.

It would however account for the lack of sightings of Annie in the hours prior to her murder and go some way to explaining the differences in body temperature.

I'll file it in the "not beyond the realms of possibility" drawer.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why did the writer confess to sharing Mr. Phillips' view about a


far longer interval between death and discovery


than that conceded by the coroner,

unless he meant that it conflicted with the coroner's findings?

They agreed with Phillips belief that an earlier ToD was likeliest but accepted his caveat saying that a later ToD was possible due to the unusual circumstances (though less likely)

[A P Tomlinson]

Agreed, A.P.,

There is of course absolutely no evidence to support this theory.

It would however account for the lack of sightings of Annie in the hours prior to her murder and go some way to explaining the differences in body temperature.

I'll file it in the "not beyond the realms of possibility" drawer.

It ticks a lot of boxes. And it would potentially fit within both windows for ToD.
But as far as "Simple explanations providing simple reasons for deviations in skin temperature between two different people" go, it's pretty robust.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Rigor can occur after 30 minutes.

That reminds me of the observations, made by several here, that Jewish people can have fair hair, or that Druitt could have tortured animals in his youth, or Colney Hatch could have told Swanson that Kosminski was dead, or that the man seen by Lawende could have been a Jewish sailor.

The doctor who was called to examine Nichols arrived about 30 minutes after the murder had occurred and noted that the body was warm and detected no rigor mortis.

The doctor who was called to examine Stride arrived about 20 minutes after the murder had occurred and noted that the body was warm and detected no rigor mortis.

The doctor who was called to examine Eddowes arrived about 42 minutes after the murder had occurred and noted that the body was warm and detected no rigor mortis.

Rigor mortis can occur 30-60 minutes after death, especially when the questionable testimony of witnesses needs to be accommodated.

[GBinOz]

Hello George,

Yes, ‘all over the Press’ was a poor choice of phrase by me.

Hi Herlock,

Perhaps it was, as there was also this, from your favourite, The Times () Sep14:

"Dr. Phillips's positive opinion that the woman had been dead quite two hours when he first saw the body at half-past 6, throws serious doubt upon the accuracy of at least two important witnesses, and considerably adds to the prevailing confusion."

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

That reminds me of the observations, made by several here, that Jewish people can have fair hair, or that Druitt could have tortured animals in his youth, or Colney Hatch could have told Swanson that Kosminski was dead, or that the man seen by Lawende could have been a Jewish sailor.

How do you know what Druitt did or didn’t do in his youth?

How do you know that the man seen by Lawende was a sailor….oh yes, if someone wears an item of clothing resembling that of a sailor that makes him a sailor….sorry I forgot about that piece of penetrating logic.

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=573588611&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB704GB704&hl=en-GB&sxsrf=AM9HkKklHKbEtS5gvqi2FPUA_XzqBKNkVQ:1697367783810&q=jewish+man+with+fair+hair&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCmLre8_eBAxVvWUEAHdyQCMMQ0pQJegQIChAB&biw=1024&bih=1247&dpr=2#imgrc=N1twqfWYq2MYCM

A fair haired Jew.

The doctor who was called to examine Nichols arrived about 30 minutes after the murder had occurred and noted that the body was warm and detected no rigor mortis.

The doctor who was called to examine Stride arrived about 20 minutes after the murder had occurred and noted that the body was warm and detected no rigor mortis.

The doctor who was called to examine Eddowes arrived about 42 minutes after the murder had occurred and noted that the body was warm and detected no rigor mortis.

Rigor mortis can occur 30-60 minutes after death, especially when the questionable testimony of witnesses needs to be accommodated.

No PI. It can occur because the authorities tell us that it can.

Unless you know better of course.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

5.30 is overwhelming likely time that she was killed despite the resort to the most deliberate and wilful attempt to denigrate witnesses that I’ve ever heard. Added to this the unbelievably arrogant belief that some on here feel that their opinions trump those of the worlds experts. Those are the depths that have been sunk to.

How can the world's experts have an opinion on Chapman's time of death when, unlike Phillips, they had no opportunity to examine her body, assess whether stiffening of the limbs had commenced, or assess how warm or cold she was?

[A P Tomlinson]

That reminds me of the observations, made by several here, that Jewish people can have fair hair, or that Druitt could have tortured animals in his youth, or Colney Hatch could have told Swanson that Kosminski was dead, or that the man seen by Lawende could have been a Jewish sailor.

The doctor who was called to examine Nichols arrived about 30 minutes after the murder had occurred and noted that the body was warm and detected no rigor mortis.

The doctor who was called to examine Stride arrived about 20 minutes after the murder had occurred and noted that the body was warm and detected no rigor mortis.

The doctor who was called to examine Eddowes arrived about 42 minutes after the murder had occurred and noted that the body was warm and detected no rigor mortis.

Rigor mortis can occur 30-60 minutes after death, especially when the questionable testimony of witnesses needs to be accommodated.

Didn't you say that you only read about cadaveric spasms the other other day, and you are now using THIS as an argument?

Here's some cases that rigor DIDN'T occur early, so why would it occur early in another???

Am I missing a more pertinent point in that comment?

And I reiterate that the ONLY reason you can state when the murders occured with any dgree of certainty was by accepting wibness testimony that there was no body there at a prior time. Yet Richardson is the one made to pirouette at the top of the stairs.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No PI. It can occur because the authorities tell us that it can.

Unless you know better of course.

It can occur, but why does it have to occur in this case?

[A P Tomlinson]

How can the world's experts have an opinion on Chapman's time of death when, unlike Phillips, they had no opportunity to examine her body, assess whether stiffening of the limbs had commenced, or assess how warm or cold she was?

Because they know how to reliably estimate ToD and he didn't?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Perhaps it was, as there was also this, from your favourite, The Times () Sep14:

"Dr. Phillips's positive opinion that the woman had been dead quite two hours when he first saw the body at half-past 6, throws serious doubt upon the accuracy of at least two important witnesses, and considerably adds to the prevailing confusion."

Cheers, George

No one has ever questioned or doubted that Phillips preferred an earlier ToD George. It’s simply a fact that he did. But he also added his caveat which, like the 17 posters on here, Baxter interpreted as meaning that he’d accepted the possibility (however small in the Doctors opinion) that the ToD could have been later.

The fact that we know that Phillips methods were unreliable plus the testimony of Richardson and Cadosch (supported by Long) proves beyond all reasonable doubt that Annie couldn’t have been killed until around 5.30. I’m more certain of this than I am that the graffito was written by the ripper or that Lawende’s man was the ripper or that Stride was killed by the ripper. To me it’s as clear cut as it gets. Inaccurate Press reporting unfortunately gives too much scope for ‘creative’ thinking imo.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It can occur, but why does it have to occur in this case?

Because three witnesses show that a later ToD was undoubtedly the likelier. But what we get is a determined effort to try and denigrate the witnesses by relying on inaccurate Press reporting which will always allow for multiple interpretations.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Because they know how to reliably estimate ToD and he didn't?

How can they reliably estimate the time of death when they have had no opportunity to examine the body?

[Herlock Sholmes]

How can the world's experts have an opinion on Chapman's time of death when, unlike Phillips, they had no opportunity to examine her body, assess whether stiffening of the limbs had commenced, or assess how warm or cold she was?

Then how can you, or others know that Phillips was correct.

They know that the methods were unreliable PI. Not sometimes, not occasionally but always. And again before you say it….of course this doesn’t mean that Doctors couldn’t and didn’t ever get it right because of course they could…..but they could get it wrong too. Even in the modern day, with modern methods and modern knowledge we have many examples of Doctors getting TOD’s wrong. This is simply a massively well-documented fact which you and a few others are reluctant to accept. What qualifies you to second guess the authorities? The only reasonable thing for a layman to do is to accept without question what they tell us. Not to question it because it doesn’t fit in with a preconception.

Phillips arrived at 6.30. He noted the commencement of stiffening. That’s all. And that she was cold. Neither dismiss or lessen the likelihood of a later ToD.

[Herlock Sholmes]

How can they reliably estimate the time of death when they have had no opportunity to examine the body?

How can you?