John Richardson

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I'd like to point out, you can't compare two comments by two different doctors. One person's 'warm' is another persons 'cool'.
You need a level from which to measure.
Had the same doctor made those different observations you would have a valid question, but not between two different doctors.

You cannot be serious that the two doctors might not have been able to agree upon the difference between warm and cold?

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'd like to point out, you can't compare two comments by two different doctors. One person's 'warm' is another persons 'cool'.

Is it really?

Can you put some meat on the bones here, because I reckon this is hitherto unseen levels of bollocks?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

OK, but how does her being an alcoholic contest Phillips observation that she had taken no alcohol in some hours before her death?

I am not sure that I understand the question.

When you use the word contest, perhaps you mean outweigh.

Biggs did not mention recent consumption of alcohol.

Why then should it be relevant?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why does this never get put to bed? It’s feels like being at the scene of a crime with the victim lying on the ground and the paramedics still pumping at her chest 5 hours later trying give life where none is possible.

We can’t compare cases. Individuals loses heat at different rates. Eddowes and Chapman were not the same person. They cannot be compared.

And when we talk about estimating the ToD by rigor or algor there are no ‘ifs’ ‘buts’ ‘maybes’ ‘what ifs’ or ‘perhaps.’ They are not reliable methods. NOT reliable. They have no reliability. Reliability…..they have none. They are bereft of reliability.

When will this bloody obvious FACT sink in with people who are desperate…..and yes I mean DESPERATE to try and manipulate the facts to try and favour an earlier ToD.

Just a reminder……in case anyone forgot……standard text on the topic…..in black and white…..no forgery (I’ve been half expecting the suggestion.

From Simpson's Forensic Medicine, 13th edition (updated by Jason Payne James and others)

'...a body is not a uniform structure: its temperature will not fall evenly and, because each body will lie in its own unique environment, each body will cool at a different speed, depending on the many factors surrounding it.'

And is rigor reliable either?

“rigor is such a variable process that it can never provide an accurate assessment of the time of death. Extreme caution should be exercised in trying to assign a time of death based on the very subjective assessment of the degree and extent of rigor."

———

Yes, these Forensic experts just can’t resist lying can they. Just so that we can give Annie Chapman an earlier ToD.

———

An on Phillips caveat for Fleetwood:

The People 30th September

It is true that Dr. Phillips thinks that when he saw the body at 6.30 the deceased had been dead at least two hours, but he admits that the coldness of he morning and the great loss of blood may affect his opinion; and if the evidence of the other witnesses be correct, Dr. Phillips has miscalculated the effect of those forces


Someone else that understood the English language.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Certainly cynically manipulated, PI, which I reckon amounts to the same thing and borne of the same vested interest that I think you're suggesting.

It's spell binding that anyone can sit there and claim with a straight face that Dr Phillips meant this: at least two hours and probably more, but possibly less than at least two hours.

You’re clueless, utterly riddled with bias and incapable of reason.

The People 30th September

It is true that Dr. Phillips thinks that when he saw the body at 6.30 the deceased had been dead at least two hours, but he admits that the coldness of he morning and the great loss of blood may affect his opinion; and if the evidence of the other witnesses be correct, Dr. Phillips has miscalculated the effect of those forces

The People understood it too.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You’re clueless, utterly riddled with bias and incapable of reason.

The People 30th September

It is true that Dr. Phillips thinks that when he saw the body at 6.30 the deceased had been dead at least two hours, but he admits that the coldness of he morning and the great loss of blood may affect his opinion; and if the evidence of the other witnesses be correct, Dr. Phillips has miscalculated the effect of those forces

The People understood it too.

What is this?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Certainly cynically manipulated, PI, which I reckon amounts to the same thing and borne of the same vested interest that I think you're suggesting.

It's spell binding that anyone can sit there and claim with a straight face that Dr Phillips meant this: at least two hours and probably more, but possibly less than at least two hours.

I wonder whether Doctor Phillips' choice of words at least two hours and probably more rather than at least two hours and probably longer could mean that he was suggesting probably three hours.

In that case, his qualification would suggest somewhere between two hours and three hours.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The presence of alcohol MAY or MAY NOT obscure an earlier time of death.

I think that is misleading.

It gives the impression that Doctor Biggs meant that the deceased's being alcoholic is equally likely not to obscure an early time of death as it is to obscure an early time of death.

He was not talking about it as though it were a toss up.

But in any case, he was not referring only to the deceased's being alcoholic, nor to the presence of alcohol.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What is this?

It’s a quote from a newspaper. What did you think it was ?

[Wickerman]

You cannot be serious that the two doctors might not have been able to agree upon the difference between warm and cold?

Definitely, whether anything is warm or cool is subjective, whether you're a doctor or not. Unless they compared figures, actual temperatures from a thermometer, then their personal opinions are subjective.
Just like going for a proverbial "second opinion", we do it because doctors do not always agree.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Definitely, whether anything is warm or cool is subjective, whether you're a doctor or not. Unless they compared figures, actual temperatures from a thermometer, then their personal opinions are subjective.
Just like going for a proverbial "second opinion", we do it because doctors do not always agree.

The difference is not, as you say, between warm and cool, but between warm and cold.

[Wickerman]

I think that is misleading.

It gives the impression that Doctor Biggs meant that the deceased's being alcoholic is equally likely not to obscure an early time of death as it is to obscure an early time of death.

He was not talking about it as though it were a toss up.

But in any case, he was not referring only to the deceased's being alcoholic, nor to the presence of alcohol.

It MAY or MAY NOT because Biggs does not know how much alcohol, or at what time prior to death it was consumed.
Is that any clearer?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

It MAY or MAY NOT because Biggs does not know how much alcohol, or at what time prior to death it was consumed.
Is that any clearer?

I have the impression that not only do you think that you know more about what Biggs meant than we do, but that you think you know more about what Biggs meant than he did.

[Wickerman]

The difference is not, as you say, between warm and cool, but between warm and cold.

I thought the doctor said their was latent heat under the organs?, or something like that. So the body wasn't cold, the fingers & toes may have been cold.
But specific parts of the body were not specified in the post.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I wonder whether Doctor Phillips' choice of words at least two hours and probably more rather than at least two hours and probably longer could mean that he was suggesting probably three hours.

In that case, his qualification would suggest somewhere between two hours and three hours.

I'm absolutely certain that when Dr Phillips stated at least two hours, he meant at least two hours.

Where it becomes a bit more ambiguous is what he meant by: "and probably more".

I can see an argument for it simply meaning beyond two hours, but my firm belief is that he meant more hours than two hours.

I reckon he was saying that in his opinion Annie was dead by half three but he wouldn't bet his house on that and the best he could say with certainty was half four at the latest.

There are other factors which support this, such as the partially digested food in Annie's stomach. We know she ate potatoes at approximately a quarter to two, easily digested food, and so that means she must have eaten again in the event we assume Annie was murdered at half five in the morning. But from where and why did she get that food. We know she went out to get money for a bed, we know she had just eaten and we know all of the vendors were asleep because there wasn't sufficient, if any, custom at that time of the morning. We know that Annie wasn't seen by anyone after a quarter to two and we know that Jack killed all of his other victims when it was dark or when he was inside four walls.

My personal opinion is that Annie was dead not long after leaving the doss house, probably closer to half two than half three. But, I wouldn't bet my house on what Dr Phillips meant by 'and probably more', although I reckon he probably meant more hours which in turn means he believed Annie was dead by half three at the latest.