John Richardson

[FISHY1118]

Its the witness testimony that is unsafe, not the witnesses, they can only say what they saw and when they saw it and then they are cross-examined or in the case of the coroner's courts asked questions, but it seems that questions which should have been asked were never asked, questions which may have given us answers to the questions we now pose.

As to your witnesses, you put so much faith in out of the three Mrs Long is the most unreliable followed by Cadosh with Richardson not far behind.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You make a good point there Trevor, if only the witnesses testimony was scrutinize in more detail by the coroner, the questions we are asking regarding the aberguity and uncertainty the of Long, Cadosch and Richardson would be a lot more clearer.

It certainly would have opened things up a lot more in regards to the medical evidence if the coroner was able to properly reconcile their accounts of what they actually saw and heard that morning.

But as you say the important questions were never asked .....Pity.

[GBinOz]

Hello George,

If the door to number 27 opened in the same way as number 29’s then it opened from left to right. So as Cadosch was going though it would have been on his right side with number 29 being on his left, not forming a barrier. Am I misunderstanding your point George?

Hi Herlock,

I think you'll find that #29 and #27 were mirror imaged, so the door opens towards the fence in both properties.


Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi Herlock,

I think you'll find that #29 and #27 were mirror imaged, so the door opens towards the fence in both properties.


Cheers, George

This is a mirror image of No.29
Did you flip that pic intentionally George?

[GBinOz]

This is a mirror image of No.29
Did you flip that pic intentionally George?

I've checked other photos in my collection and your statement is correct in that the picture is a mirror of #29. I presume you were joking about my having flipped it. I stand by my original opinion that both the doors would have swung towards the fence.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

I've checked other photos in my collection and your statement is correct in that the picture is a mirror of #29. I presume you were joking about my having flipped it. I stand by my original opinion that both the doors would have swung towards the fence.

Cheers, George

Quite correct George, both doors will have been hinged at the fence side. Properties were built mirror image, so they only have to build one reinforced chimney wall for every two houses, saving materials. Plus the water closets in the yard were back-to-back to save on plumbing, etc.

Not joking, I wondered if you had flipped it to show how similar Cadoche's yard looked from his side of the fence, seeing as how we don't have any photo's on that side.
It was only a question, not an accusation.
Sorry.

[GBinOz]

Quite correct George, both doors will have been hinged at the fence side. Properties were built mirror image, so they only have to build one reinforced chimney wall for every two houses, saving materials. Plus the water closets in the yard were back-to-back to save on plumbing, etc.

Not joking, I wondered if you had flipped it to show how similar Cadoche's yard looked from his side of the fence, seeing as how we don't have any photo's on that side.
It was only a question, not an accusation.
Sorry.

Thanks Jon.

Here is another photo that initially mislead me:


It shows the palings on the #29 side, which means the rails are on the otherside, which is what is seen on my earlier photo. This photo also clearly shows paving where as in the other it is not so clear. However the following persuaded me that I may be in error with the differences above the door..



Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Its the witness testimony that is unsafe, not the witnesses, they can only say what they saw and when they saw it and then they are cross-examined or in the case of the coroner's courts asked questions, but it seems that questions which should have been asked were never asked, questions which may have given us answers to the questions we now pose.

As to your witnesses, you put so much faith in out of the three Mrs Long is the most unreliable followed by Cadosh with Richardson not far behind.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Richardson is rock solid. Cadosch is solid. Long is a very good possible.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I think you'll find that #29 and #27 were mirror imaged, so the door opens towards the fence in both properties.


Cheers, George

Hi George,

No problem. I still don’t think the door would have made a difference but I can’t dispute that you’re right about which way it opened.

[Michael W Richards]

Richardson is rock solid. Cadosch is solid. Long is a very good possible.

Interesting. Richardson establishes that the body was not there at around 4:45, and Cadosche establishes that someone is in the backyard of #29 between 5:10-15 and 5:20-25. If Cadosche heard what he said he heard from #29, when he said he did, then its virtually established that the killer and Annie are in that yard. Which absolutely negates Long...so not a very good possible at all, is she?

The murder of Annie took a bit of time, and the killer slipped away sight unseen, so... before Davis checks in at just before 6. So.....there is no time for someone to leave and someone new to arrive after the sounds heard by Cadosche....so...Mrs Long is not viable in any shape or form.

[Wickerman]

Thanks Jon.

Here is another photo that initially mislead me:


It shows the palings on the #29 side, which means the rails are on the otherside, which is what is seen on my earlier photo. This photo also clearly shows paving where as in the other it is not so clear. However the following persuaded me that I may be in error with the differences above the door..

Cheers, George

I'm almost hesitant to mention this, but you do realise the above is Computer Generated, it's not a photograph.
Brilliantly done, no prizes for guessing who made it, but not an original.

It's a cleaned up version of this original photograph.
Not quite the same angle, but far too clean to be a photo.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Interesting. Richardson establishes that the body was not there at around 4:45, and Cadosche establishes that someone is in the backyard of #29 between 5:10-15 and 5:20-25. If Cadosche heard what he said he heard from #29, when he said he did, then its virtually established that the killer and Annie are in that yard. Which absolutely negates Long...so not a very good possible at all, is she?

The murder of Annie took a bit of time, and the killer slipped away sight unseen, so... before Davis checks in at just before 6. So.....there is no time for someone to leave and someone new to arrive after the sounds heard by Cadosche....so...Mrs Long is not viable in any shape or form.

Totally viable.

All it requires is for the clock that Long used to have been 5 minutes or so out and Cadosch to have been out by around the same time and they align perfectly……oh I forgot….all Victorian clocks were spot on and synchronised perfectly.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just for those who disagreed with the obvious fact that Phillips added a caveat to his ToD estimate…..it’s not just those of us on here who point out the obvious but….

The People 30th September

“It is true that Dr. Phillips thinks that when he saw the body at 6.30 the deceased had been dead at least two hours, but he admits that the coldness of he morning and the great loss of blood may affect his opinion; and if the evidence of the other witnesses be correct, Dr. Phillips has miscalculated the effect of those forces”

[Wickerman]

Thanks Jon.

Here is another photo that initially mislead me:


It shows the palings on the #29 side, which means the rails are on the otherside, which is what is seen on my earlier photo....

Cheers, George

This is a closeup, the rails perfectly visible on No.29 side, but the fence cannot possibly be the same one as was there in 1888.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM,

Cadosche actually testified "I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door". So he was in the door way, with the door self closing (presuming it was like #29) and forming a barrier to the supposed direction of the source of the sound. In addition the possibility of echoes is thrown into the mix. My conclusion is that he wasn't sure where the sound came from and was perhaps trying to be "helpful" in suggesting that it may have come from the #29 side.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

That same sound barrier would apply to the right ear and so you would have the same situation.

Albert is close to that fence at this point, bear in mind.

I'm not suggesting it's a point for or against a later TOD by the way. I just think it's interesting that Albert should have known that sound was from his left. The fact he's going through a door doesn't make any difference given the way sound travels from ear to ear (fathomed by the brain) and the obstruction between the ears: it's how we distinguish where a sound originates. The volume would still have been higher in the left ear and lower in the right ear, whether or not he was going through a door.

In contrast, Albert is unequivocal that the sound against the fence was from number 29.

Were I an advocate of the later TOD, I'd maybe reconsider whether or not the "no" and the fence noise originated from the same place. I'd consider the possibility that the "no" came from in front of Albert and the fence noise to the left of Albert. I'd consider whether or not the "no" and the fence noise had any connection whatsoever, and whether or not Annie did say "no" but she was outside to the front of the house and by the time Albert came out again she and her killer had moved into the yard.

Given how close Albert would have been, and that we're conditioned to distinguish between a sound from our left or right, it's interesting that Albert couldn't pick it out.

[Michael W Richards]

Totally viable.

All it requires is for the clock that Long used to have been 5 minutes or so out and Cadosch to have been out by around the same time and they align perfectly……oh I forgot….all Victorian clocks were spot on and synchronised perfectly.

Oh, my bad. I forgot that you believe no-one in London in 1888 actually knew what time it was at any given point. Funny though that Mrs Long says she was "certain", just like Louis said "precisely at". I agree though, things are much easier when you just disregard what was actually said and instead use what fits with the storyline you believe.