John Richardson

[Elamarna]

It seems that Catherine and Liz were murdered with different knives, 'not conclusive but it appears that way.

This is I believe one of those myths that as grown over the years FM.

At the Berner Street inquest, Phillips and Blackwell are asked about the knife found in the Whitechapel road, the day after the murder.
Their comments it seems have been misunderstood and misquoted very often.

So here is what they say.

They say the knife they are shown, is in their view not the weapon used, they consider it too long and unwieldy. it's over a foot long.
They also note the end of the blade as been turned and blunted and that it had previously been a sharp blade.

While they do not consider it was the weapon used, it could have inflicted the wound to Strides Neck. They add that a short bladed knife could have equally inflicted the wound.

The point they are attempting to make, is that given the nature of the wound to the neck, either blade, one over a foot or one of 2 or 3 inches could have made the cut.
There is NO way of actually knowing the blade length given the wound was a slice across part of the neck.

Unfortunately over the years this as translated, almost like Chinese whispers, into the wound on Stride was made by a short bladed, blunt knife.
Phillips and Blackwell did not say that.

I am working on a presentation on this very issue.

Steve

[Lewis C]

Regarding Liz being on Fanny's side of the street when seen by PC Smith, where did you get this from? And, even if they were, Fanny would have seen them from her door. The question remains, where did Liz and parcel man disappear to? I'm not convinced Brown saw Liz.

I'm not certain that the location where Smith saw Stride and Parcel Man would have been outside her field of vision if she had been at her door at that time, but looking out a door is similar to looking out a window. When one looks out of a door or window, one's view of that which is on the periphery will be blocked by the walls of one's house. The closer one's house is to the street, the less one will be able to see that's on the same side of the street as the house when looking out the front door.

Liz didn't disappear unless neither Schwartz nor Brown really saw her. I don't know where parcel man went. Maybe he moved on to somewhere else, or maybe he was one of the other men that were witnessed in the area later (BS man, pipeman, or overcoat man).

[Lewis C]

It would be interesting to hear an assessment of the medical evidence for a 'just before 1am' murder.

We could go 'round the houses on who saw whom until the cows come home, the medical evidence may be more instructive here.

'Not saying the medical evidence rules that time out.

Dr Blackwell tells us that Liz would have bled to death 'comparatively slowly', unfortunately Dr Phillips doesn't comment that.

In the event Louis interrupted Jack, then the situation is that the cut to Liz's throat would have taken seconds. It's a fair bet that Jack's next step would have been a second cut to the throat, but he didn't have time. It follows that Jack had only just cut Liz's throat prior to Louis arriving. We're talking seconds here between cut and Louis arriving.

Is it possible that in those seconds Liz bled to death? Dr Blackwell appears to rule that out.

And, Dr Phillips described the cut as 'the partial severance of the carotid artery'.

Just out of interest, there was an ice hockey player who had his carotid artery almost completely severed by a teammate's skate around 2008. That ice hockey player didn't immediately pass out. In fact, he skated three quarters of the ice after the accident. At that point they were able to put a towel on it and stop the blood flow. The point here is that even without assistance, I don't think it should be taken for granted that Liz would have been rendered unconscious immediately.

It follows that a Louis interruption scenario may well have found a gargling, spluttering Liz, except he didn't find that.

We could do with an assessment of the medical from someone who is well versed in carotid arteries and the like.

Those are good points.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I missed this strange point….

I said “When have I ever claimed that everyone agrees with me on everything?“

To which the reply was….

Like on every post to me when you claim nobody agrees with me? Sound familiar?

Can anyone understand this?

[Fiver]

As to timings, Kozebrodski, Heschberg, PC Lamb and the statement of Fanny Mortimer all contradict Louis's stated arrival time.

Fanny Mortimer's account does not contradict Lewis Diemschutz' stated arrival time.

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

As to Lamb, accounts differ.

"Constable Henry Lamb, 252 H division, examined by the coroner, said: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting." - 3 October 1888 Daily Telegraph.

"Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, who said: At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running to me, shouting." - 3 October 1888 Daily News.

"Police-constable Henry Lamb said that on Sunday morning when he was in Commercial-road, at about 1 o'clock, two men came to him shouting out that there had been another horrible murder." - 6 October 1888 East London Advertiser.

"Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed - About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running to me shouting something.' - 3 October 1888 Morning Advertiser.

"Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed as follows: - About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me." - 3 October 1888 Times.

Four accounts say "about" One account says "before".

Why should we assume that one paper got it right and four papers got it wrong?

[Fiver]

Giving an answer that defies logic and is counter to the record isnt "dealing" with anything. Its a refusal to acknowledge a point being made.

The one giving an answer that ignores the facts is you, not Herlock.

[Fiver]

Gillen is someone that is mentioned, he has not been indetified and he wasnt interviewed, so dont bother denying that name was mentioned in conjunction with the discovery.

There was no Gillen. This has been pointed out to you dozens of times.

"I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard."" - 2 October 1888 Times

Possibly this was Louis Joseph Francois Gilleman, a Belgian wardrobe dealer born around 1857.

[Fiver]

Thanks for weighing in on what you deem as reasonable and logical. Schwartz's absence is glaringly obvious, the reason why he isnt called is up for grabs. But suggesting that omission doesnt suggest a lack of confidence in his story, as was indicated in the press, is just denial.

Mortimer wasn't called. Kozebrodsky wasn't called. Heshberg wasn't called.

Yet you accept them and dismiss Schwartz for not being called.

[Fiver]

Duplicate.

[Fiver]

I missed this strange point….

I said “When have I ever claimed that everyone agrees with me on everything?“

To which the reply was….



Can anyone understand this?

Perhaps English isn't his first language?

[Fleetwood Mac]

I am working on a presentation on this very issue.

Steve

'Should be a good read, Steve.

It's been a good while since I looked at the knife issue, 'think I'll go back over the medical statements tonight as it will be something relatively new and refreshing for me.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm not certain that the location where Smith saw Stride and Parcel Man would have been outside her field of vision if she had been at her door at that time, but looking out a door is similar to looking out a window. When one looks out of a door or window, one's view of that which is on the periphery will be blocked by the walls of one's house. The closer one's house is to the street, the less one will be able to see that's on the same side of the street as the house when looking out the front door.

Liz didn't disappear unless neither Schwartz nor Brown really saw her. I don't know where parcel man went. Maybe he moved on to somewhere else, or maybe he was one of the other men that were witnessed in the area later (BS man, pipeman, or overcoat man).

I'm not convinced Liz was seen on Fanny's side.

But, let's assume she was:

I think it's unlikely that Fanny went to her door and simply looked straight ahead.

In fact, Fanny tells us that this wasn't the case when she was able to see Leon Goldstein 'look up at the window on his way past'.

[Elamarna]

'Should be a good read, Steve.

It's been a good while since I looked at the knife issue, 'think I'll go back over the medical statements tonight as it will be something relatively new and refreshing for me.

A different knife as been stated by no lesser person than the later Martin Fido, so it seems this is set very deeply.
I suspect "could have been inflicted by s short blade" as at some point been written as "was". Then like so much it simply gets repeated.


Steve

[Fiver]

And that’s without looking at the rest of the details. Six obvious points which show how absolutely unbelievable the very idea of this ‘plot’ is. And when you start from a theory that’s not remotely likely then you are forced to clutch at straws to maintain it. Which is what we’ve seen for years on this subject.

There's another level where this supposed plot does not make sense. The supposed motive is that they're afraid that a victim found outside the club will give the authorities a chance to shut the club down, so they fake the time of the murder.

Of course, this makes no sense. Their problem is not when the murder happened, it is where the murder happened. Lying cannot solve this problem, plus it means they risk being arrested for perjury and obstruction of justice.

I also find the theory distasteful, since it appears to believe that all Jews would lie and commit crimes to protect each other.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And Diemschutz had a cart. How long would it have taken to wrap the body in an old sheet and put it on the back of the cart and then dumped it somewhere? They could even have waited until the coast was clear in the street and dragged the body a few feet away from the gates.