John Richardson

[Fleetwood Mac]

Its pretty amazing to me that people often suggest I do not have enough data to make a conclusion... then like above, they make basically the same deduction.

Ive said umpteen times that its probable Liz was killed just after her last legit sighting...Smith, because Fanny was likely not at her door...like she was, from 12:50 until 1am. She did not see or hear Louis and his cart arrive. In your summary above you also suggest by your comments that anyone claiming to have seen Liz on the street after 12:35 is probably not to be believed. Like Israel. You also have Lave and Eagle at that gate around 12:40, both claiming to have seen nothing...though Eagle says he "couldnt be sure" she wasnt there at the time. You have numerous witnesses state they heard of the event around 12:40, and the Arbeter Fraint in late Nov claims that she was killed around "quarter to 1". All these things Ive pointed out numerous times.

Yet you post "I think there a few leaps of faith in your conclusion, or it may simply be that you haven't added enough detail to explain your conclusion." Really? Just before essentially concluding the same timing? Is this a matter of who gets credit for discovering a logical path to reality? Ive had others take my comments and reword them, then just use the idea as if their own. On this topic and others. Its Odd.

I reckon you've misunderstood my post.

When I said: "leap of faith", I was talking specifically of your claim that: neither of those statements suggest a time near 1am (Phillips/Blackwell statements).

Neither doctor ruled out a TOD close to 1am. I'll point you back to my post 3809, if you want to discuss that further.

And, to recap, this was your initial statement that led to where we are now:

When you take Blackwells estimates and Phillips you are left with a cut time that is around the time Israel's story takes place (your post 3803).

[Michael W Richards]

I reckon you've misunderstood my post.

When I said: "leap of faith", I was talking specifically of your claim that: neither of those statements suggest a time near 1am (Phillips/Blackwell statements).

Neither doctor ruled out a TOD close to 1am. I'll point you back to my post 3809, if you want to discuss that further.

And, to recap, this was your initial statement that led to where we are now:

When you take Blackwells estimates and Phillips you are left with a cut time that is around the time Israel's story takes place (your post 3803).

Blackwells estimate works out to a cut time between 12:46 and 12:56, and Phillips estimate at 1:30 "within an hour", when juxtaposed with the man who was there 15 minutes before Phillips, suggests a cut around 12:45. Thats not "near 1am". Phillips didnt say within a "half hour" and Blackwells estimate is clearly 12:46 to 12:56. Neither estimates are set in stone, but both suggest a cut before 1am. And, as I said, we have several witnesses...in fact the only corroborative accounts are Fanny's, Issac K with Heschberg and this mysterious Gillen fellow, and Wess and Lave for 12:30. Israel is a standalone account, Eagles arrival back at the club is a standalone account, Diemshitz who gives a specific time for his arrival...curiously while Fanny is at her door..is a standalone account. The first PC on site just before 1 is corroborated with Issac K, both indicating they were with Eagle at that time, and Lave says he was at the gates until around 12:45..and he doesnt see Eagle arrive.

Back to my initial post, factoring in both medical opinions the cut took place between 12:30 and 1am. Blackwells estimate suggests 12:46-12:56, and that does not contradict Phillips. So...near the time when Israel claims he saw Liz and 2 people out in the street.

And from you a few posts back..."We've assumed that Schwartz's event must be connected to the murder, because we know a murder took place around that time."

[Michael W Richards]

There is not one person that saw Israel, a Pipeman or a Broad Shouldered Man except for Israel, and there is no-one BUT Israel who says he saw Liz alive on the street at around 12:45. Why anyone clings to his story is beyond me, the Inquest didnt think it was relevant, nor should anyone who has investigated any crimes, professionally or as an amateur. People whose story cannot be validated, and in fact contradicts corroborated accounts, are not given blind acceptance by any serious student.

[Lewis C]

There is not one person that saw Israel, a Pipeman or a Broad Shouldered Man except for Israel, and there is no-one BUT Israel who says he saw Liz alive on the street at around 12:45. Why anyone clings to his story is beyond me, the Inquest didnt think it was relevant, nor should anyone who has investigated any crimes, professionally or as an amateur. People whose story cannot be validated, and in fact contradicts corroborated accounts, are not given blind acceptance by any serious student.

James Brown said that he believed that the woman that he saw at about 12:50 was Liz.

[Mark J D]

There is not one person that saw Israel, a Pipeman or a Broad Shouldered Man except for Israel, and there is no-one BUT Israel who says he saw Liz alive on the street at around 12:45. Why anyone clings to his story is beyond me, the Inquest didnt think it was relevant, nor should anyone who has investigated any crimes, professionally or as an amateur. People whose story cannot be validated, and in fact contradicts corroborated accounts, are not given blind acceptance by any serious student.

Michael,

It's very obvious that you have done detailed work on all the reports from that night: what is the thread where you most fully go through the material? I am deeply interested in this aspect.

Thanks.

Mark D.

[c.d.]

There is not one person that saw Israel, a Pipeman or a Broad Shouldered Man except for Israel, and there is no-one BUT Israel who says he saw Liz alive on the street at around 12:45. Why anyone clings to his story is beyond me, the Inquest didnt think it was relevant, nor should anyone who has investigated any crimes, professionally or as an amateur. People whose story cannot be validated, and in fact contradicts corroborated accounts, are not given blind acceptance by any serious student.

No, we don't know why he did not appear at the inquest. We have been over that a million times and the bottom line is we simply don't know.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

James Brown said that he believed that the woman that he saw at about 12:50 was Liz.

The woman he saw did not have a flower on her jacket, and was almost certainly the young couple, who were the ONLY people seen on the street by Fanny after 12:35.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

It's very obvious that you have done detailed work on all the reports from that night: what is the thread where you most fully go through the material? I am deeply interested in this aspect.

Thanks.

Mark D.

I have done a ton of reading from all sources, press, Inquest transcripts, individuals interviewed, police reports....Im sorry I cant give you the shortcut to the most pertinent data Mark its kind of sifting through the data and seeing what holds up to scrutiny. I would recommend making a chart for the period of 12:30 until just after 1am, then filling in the times given by all the witnesses. You will see very clearly that there is not one cohesive story, so its then a matter of sifting again for credibility and validations. Also, who had what to gain by falsifying a story. All the witnesses without secondhand verification, Israel, Eagle returning, Lave at the gates, Louis returning,.. who went for help and when, what time police were there, medical personelle.....my opinion comes from comparative analysis and deciding upon whom I could trust the most. People whose story is validated by the story of another witness without any premeditation.

Im afraid that there is no short form way to get at the truth here. Although some think just accepting things that are in the record and arguing with anyone who says differently is a viable approach to solving the problems.

[Michael W Richards]

No, we don't know why he did not appear at the inquest. We have been over that a million times and the bottom line is we simply don't know.

c.d.

Youve said this before, and obviously you dont know who has the burden of proof here. You, not me. The records clearly show that no statement of Israel Schwartz was taken orally or in written form, in the absence of, or by someone acting on the witnesses behalf. There is no mention anywhere of sequestering, (as was done and acknowledged in the case of Lawende), there is no mention he was subpoenaed, no mention his story was withheld, no mention of anything related to Israel Schwartz or his tall tale in the Inquest records. None. Who is on record for the time of 12:45? Brown. And he didnt see Liz anyway.

So...on what basis do you question the finding that he wasnt involved in the Inquest? Or is this just another attempt at you being a painintheasstifist.? And provide proof, Ive provided proof that he wasnt. Your turn.

[c.d.]

So...on what basis do you question the finding that he wasnt involved in the Inquest? Or is this just another attempt at you being a painintheasstifist.? And provide proof, Ive provided proof that he wasnt. Your turn.

I don't question the finding that he was not involved at all. What I questioned and what I have always questioned is how you know why he was not called. Again, how you actually know as opposed to what you believe the reason was.

And are you simply incapable of an adult response without throwing in a personal insult? Such things can get you banned you know.

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Blackwells estimate works out to a cut time between 12:46 and 12:56, and Phillips estimate at 1:30 "within an hour", when juxtaposed with the man who was there 15 minutes before Phillips, suggests a cut around 12:45. Thats not "near 1am". Phillips didnt say within a "half hour" and Blackwells estimate is clearly 12:46 to 12:56. Neither estimates are set in stone, but both suggest a cut before 1am.

Your original comment, the one we're discussing was this:

When you take Blackwells estimates and Phillips you are left with a cut time that is around the time Israel's story takes place.

Quite clearly, this is not a fair interpretation of that which the doctors stated.

You and I both believe that Liz was murdered towards the earlier end of the possibilities, but to argue that 'we are left with 12.45am' is simply not credible and to be frank it detracts from your argument given that you're bending that which both Dr Blackwell and Dr Phillips actually stated.

As for your above comment which is in quotes, I'm not sure what you're saying. Revisit my post 3809, which outlines what Dr Phillips and Dr Blackwell actually stated. Feel free to reply to those points. They quite clearly leave room for a murder very close to 1am, but there's not a great deal of use in repeating what I stated in that post, unless of course you want to reply to the points one by one.

The other thing I would say, Michael, is that I haven't read your theory nor posts in full but you do get off to a bad start in two respects.

Firstly, you claim that an article written in the A.F. somehow adds weight to your theory. It doesn't. It is the opinion of someone who wrote an article and that person is not an authoritative voice. Fanny Mortimer claimed Louis interrupted the murderer, but you wouldn't entertain the idea that Fanny's claim adds weight to an approx. 1am TOD, and quite rightly.

Secondly, to claim that the medical evidence suggests that 'we are left with a cut time around 12.45' is not a fair interpretation of the medical testimony. It's a possibility but we're certainly not 'left with it'.

I for one, am far from convinced with your reasoning in those respects and that is not a good sign for any other argument you make relating to Liz's murder. I don't think you're being objective.

[Fleetwood Mac]

There is not one person that saw Israel, a Pipeman or a Broad Shouldered Man except for Israel, and there is no-one BUT Israel who says he saw Liz alive on the street at around 12:45. Why anyone clings to his story is beyond me, the Inquest didnt think it was relevant, nor should anyone who has investigated any crimes, professionally or as an amateur. People whose story cannot be validated, and in fact contradicts corroborated accounts, are not given blind acceptance by any serious student.

I would tend to agree with the general point, but we can't simply dismiss Israel and associates as 'clinging to stories'. Many, many important witnesses in murder cases were not validated by anyone else.

Anyway, why does Israel's event necessarily have to be connected to Liz? Perhaps it was merely one of those events that Fanny heard often, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the murder.

[Lewis C]

The woman he saw did not have a flower on her jacket, and was almost certainly the young couple, who were the ONLY people seen on the street by Fanny after 12:35.

Brown didn't see a flower on her, but it could be that the man she was with was blocking Brown's view of the flower. Fanny didn't see the young couple, and from the young woman's statement, she seems to have left by 12:30, although I think her statement leaves some room for doubt about that. Fanny did see Leon Goldstein.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Brown didn't see a flower on her, but it could be that the man she was with was blocking Brown's view of the flower. Fanny didn't see the young couple, and from the young woman's statement, she seems to have left by 12:30, although I think her statement leaves some room for doubt about that. Fanny did see Leon Goldstein.

Fanny did see or hear quite a few things: Leon Goldstein, a cart passing, 'the heavy tramp of a policeman', noise from the club.

And then of course, Brown didn't see Schwartz and associates either. The chandlers shop he went to was four doors from Dutfield's Yard on the corner of Fairclough Street.

Fanny does give us a tantalising piece of information. That being, she went to the door just after the 'heavy tramp' passed. Assuming that was PC Smith, and that's a decent bet, then why didn't she see Liz and Parcel Man (as noticed by PC Smith)? Where had they gone?

PC Smith noticed the flower and stated at the inquest he was certain that was Liz. Obviously, he was paid to take notice of people. PC Smith tells us that Liz and Parcel Man were stood on the opposite side of the street, almost opposite Dutfield's Yard; and so Fanny could not have missed them when she went to her door 'just after' the 'heavy tramp' passed.

[Michael W Richards]

Brown didn't see a flower on her, but it could be that the man she was with was blocking Brown's view of the flower. Fanny didn't see the young couple, and from the young woman's statement, she seems to have left by 12:30, although I think her statement leaves some room for doubt about that. Fanny did see Leon Goldstein.

Fanny did in fact see the young couple, they were the only people aside from Goldstein that she saw on the street that last half hour. Its on record.