John Richardson

[FISHY1118]

I think objectively the murder could have begun as early as when Cadosche heard the voice, he guesses it was at 5:15 when he rose. He heard only a fence "touch" later. Just sayin.

From Casebook-Witness files.."Cadosch testified that on the morning of 8th September 1888, he got up at 5.15am and went into the yard, presumably to relieve himself. On going back to the house, he heard a voice say "No!" from behind the fence which divided the backyards of Nos.27 and 29 Hanbury Street. A few minutes later, he needed to use the yard again, whereupon he heard something touch the fence from the other side. His suspicions were not aroused as he had occasionally heard people in the yard of No.29 at that time of the morning. He did not hear the rustling of clothes and he did not look to see what was causing the noises."

If the murder indeed started at 5.15 am ,its highly unlikely to have been Annie Chapmans body hitting up against the fence as some have claimed .

[Michael W Richards]

If the murder indeed started at 5.15 am ,its highly unlikely to have been Annie Chapmans body hitting up against the fence as some have claimed .

I think its quite probable that the killer needed to move the body a bit to access what he wanted, the thud might have been him repositioning the body or by himself, as he did move her about. The position she is found in almost certainly is one that the killer created.

[FISHY1118]

I think its quite probable that the killer needed to move the body a bit to access what he wanted, the thud might have been him repositioning the body or by himself, as he did move her about. The position she is found in almost certainly is one that the killer created.

Thats one possibility, however

The only problem there is, the injuries inflicted on Chapman were all done from her right side. There was no need for the killer to move her body from the position which she was found, or for him to be between Chapman and the fence to make the noise heard by Cadosch.

[Michael W Richards]

Thats one possibility, however

The only problem there is, the injuries inflicted on Chapman were all done from her right side. There was no need for the killer to move her body from the position which she was found, or for him to be between Chapman and the fence to make the noise heard by Cadosch.

I see where you might be missing my real point, if the murder began at around 5:15 ish when Cadosche hears the voice, we cant be sure exactly where in that yard..specifically...they were. He might not be cutting her precisely where that attack is presumed to have begun, he might just have been choking her. If she collapsed against the fence, she would need to be moved to where she is found. The fact that she is found so close to that fence...so close that some spray from her throat cuts splattered on the fence panels, might be an indication that he was not at her side side at that moment. If the spray hits the fence, that means he wasnt in between the source and destination. Thats why I believe some negotiating of the unconscious womans body was called for. Its that flat on the back knees spread pose that for me is one of the most important elements to use to help identify if this is also Pollys killer, and also Kates.

It shows us his desire to have ease of access when doing what he wanted to do.

[FISHY1118]

I see where you might be missing my real point, if the murder began at around 5:15 ish when Cadosche hears the voice, we cant be sure exactly where in that yard..specifically...they were. He might not be cutting her precisely where that attack is presumed to have begun, he might just have been choking her. If she collapsed against the fence, she would need to be moved to where she is found. The fact that she is found so close to that fence...so close that some spray from her throat cuts splattered on the fence panels, might be an indication that he was not at her side side at that moment. If the spray hits the fence, that means he wasnt in between the source and destination. Thats why I believe some negotiating of the unconscious womans body was called for. Its that flat on the back knees spread pose that for me is one of the most important elements to use to help identify if this is also Pollys killer, and also Kates.

It shows us his desire to have ease of access when doing what he wanted to do.

So your saying she was choked somewhere else in the yard and then dragged/ carried to the spot where the mutilations were carried out thus the murderer knocking her against the fence for Cadosch to hear ?

[Michael W Richards]

So your saying she was choked somewhere else in the yard and then dragged/ carried to the spot where the mutilations were carried out thus the murderer knocking her against the fence for Cadosch to hear ?

No, not really. Im just suggesting that hearing a voice from the other side of the fence doesnt mean that the source of the voice was from the exact spot where she is cut. If he begins strangling her after they descend the steps it might mean she drops to the ground in someplace close to but not on the specific spot she is later found in. He might have moved her from the bottom of the steps and positioned her at that time. Hence the "thud" heard on his second outing.

[FISHY1118]

No, not really. Im just suggesting that hearing a voice from the other side of the fence doesnt mean that the source of the voice was from the exact spot where she is cut. If he begins strangling her after they descend the steps it might mean she drops to the ground in someplace close to but not on the specific spot she is later found in. He might have moved her from the bottom of the steps and positioned her at that time. Hence the "thud" heard on his second outing.

Ok , But that still a long pause between the ''drop to the ground'' and when the killer decides to move her body into the position she was found.

That would mean a estimated 3/4 minutes he waited to move her for Cadosch to hear the ''Thud'' , an unlikely senario im afraid, i just dont see it happening that way.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No, not really. Im just suggesting that hearing a voice from the other side of the fence doesnt mean that the source of the voice was from the exact spot where she is cut. If he begins strangling her after they descend the steps it might mean she drops to the ground in someplace close to but not on the specific spot she is later found in. He might have moved her from the bottom of the steps and positioned her at that time. Hence the "thud" heard on his second outing.

Is there any evidence that the victim's body was moved in any of the other murders in the same series?

[FISHY1118]

No. Not moved after death to another spot to then mutilat.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No. Not moved after death to another spot to then mutilat.

Thanks for your response, Fishy, but my question was really rhetorical.

There has never been any evidence of any of the bodies having been moved.

[FISHY1118]

I know I was just merely reiterating.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I know I was just merely reiterating.

I know - and I always appreciate it when someone agrees with me.

[Michael W Richards]

Ok , But that still a long pause between the ''drop to the ground'' and when the killer decides to move her body into the position she was found.

That would mean a estimated 3/4 minutes he waited to move her for Cadosch to hear the ''Thud'' , an unlikely senario im afraid, i just dont see it happening that way.

He hears "no" at around 5:15, then a few minutes later comes back out and hears the thud. Just how long do you imagine strangulation can take?

[Michael W Richards]

There seems to be some overlooking the obvious here....Liz Stride wasnt moved. She dropped and was found in that same position. But Polly was placed on her back and the legs were spread, so was Annie,. so was Kate. Unless you imagine that after choking them to a state of unconsciousness the just happen to fall on their back and their legs somehow spread open on their own. Even Mary was supposedly moved to the centre of the bed after being cut closer to the partition wall.

The victims were moved by the killer...at least after first subduing them, it isnt really debateable. The evidence is clear.

[FISHY1118]

I know - and I always appreciate it when someone agrees with me.

Dont we all.